Monday, July 13, 2026

Oh, go ahead. Hold on. Supposed to have

Perry Allen  0:08  
hit. Take the top. Say that all

Karen Smythe  0:12  
the time. Exactly. It's being recorded. Jim is here. And there you go. Let's wait. Yeah, Jen. Jen will just be mad at me. I didn't start at the beginning. Okay, okay. We did start the meeting at 1:05. We'll tell her that. Okay. With that, and and also just sort of to give a lay of the land, we have our experts. So we we have hired Bonnie Franson, who's with Nelson Hope and Voorhees. We actually went through an RFP process, we interviewed three different firms, and we we selected Nelson Pope and Vorhees, and it has been a pleasure to work with you. So we're grateful that you're you're with us. And then we have Victoria Polidoro, who is our land use attorney, who's been working with the village for how many years? A

Victoria Polidoro  1:00  
lot of years. A lot of years, decades.

Karen Smythe  1:03  
So you know you know us well, which I think is also very very helpful. And and then we have Henry, whose last name I didn't get.

Perry Allen  1:11  
Heinsman.

Karen Smythe  1:11  
Heinzman with Rosenhausen. Rosenhaus, whatever your your your firm to apologize. I think our

Victoria Polidoro  1:20  
firm has been representing the village for like for since 2000 decades. Yeah, decades on land use 2007

Karen Smythe  1:29  
Yeah, something

Victoria Polidoro  1:30  
like that.

Karen Smythe  1:31  
Almost almost 20 years. Yeah, that's that's great. And I'll just ask Susanna if you need us to speak up because we don't have our microphones. Let us know. We could. I don't know that microphones are going to reach out here, but I will ask folks to speak up.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:50  
She's vigorously head nodding for the microwave. Yes, usually with the air conditioners, which I think you should leave on, but speaking at the speaker.

Karen Smythe  1:57  
Got it. Okay, because I want to make sure that this gets recorded because it's a great opportunity for all of us and the public to go back to and say what did we talk about and oh what happened because we're not going to remember everything so and it's a great opportunity for us to have both of you here given your work on this and your depth of experience so so Tobani I'll let you take it from here. Maybe just a little overview of the zoning amendment and sort of how we got where we are, so that we can then sort of go

Bonnie Franson  2:30  
maybe down the questions, down the list of questions that you had come up with based on our prior discussions. Sure. So this planning, the zoning effort has been going on since the end of maybe 2023. That sounds right, and it was to look at the zoning related to North Broadway, especially given the agreement that was put into place by the town of Red Hook related to the cooking camp farm. So we looked at that property also in relation to the corridor there, and ultimately came up with a planning study that documented the existing conditions of the corridor. We talked about the zoning relative to the consistency of existing comprehensive planning efforts in the village, and then came up with suggested modifications. So at that time, once we got far enough with the planning study, we had started to draft zoning that might be implemented, so that there was a little bit of an iterative process of knowing perhaps where the zoning was going, so that it could inform the planning study and vice versa. So ultimately, the planning study was adopted, and so now we are going back to the zoning to get that finalized, and we will have to, as part of that process, ultimately you'll have to have a public hearing because it is a local law that gets passed, and you have to do seeker on that effort too. So, to the extent that it's different from the analysis that was done for the planning study, we will have a separate long form, and at this point they're slightly different because the secret regulations were changed recently. Ultimately, it's going to be interesting, and I'll defer to Victoria because I think you're a little farther up on some of these seeker changes, but it'll be interesting when, and I think this is something to talk about since we're in the midst of zoning amendments, whether or not larger residential projects are going to end up exempted from the seeker process. Oh, right. So, what has been happening in some communities is they're modifying their special use permit standards or certain standards to be able to ask for some of the analyzes that you would typically ask for, and I'm thinking especially about traffic studies that you if you don't build it into your zoning, you may not just question whether you'd be able to ask for it if there's no seat process. So I just want to put that on the table because I think it's going to be important. And again, I'm not sure where we are with thresholds in the village. If the village is considered an urban area.

Victoria Polidoro  5:42  
I think part of it depends on if this will get municipal sewer or not, because some of the exemptions were created for municipal water, municipal sewer, saying that there's not really an impact if you're on previously disturbed land and there's municipal water and municipal sewer systems. I don't know. Some of the questions are: What does previously disturbed mean? Is farming previously disturbed? Yeah, I mean that has to be within years if

Bonnie Franson  6:07  
you are on sewer. I think it talks about sewer at the time of habitation. So I thought so. If in fact, if it's planned to be connected, you know whatever happens in that district, and there you know obviously two large landholders there who might come in at some point to develop. Again, they couldn't exempt. So again, I want to get that in your mind because if we're going to for this and for any other big projects that may occur in the village may want to deal with this now rather than later, and not exactly zoning, just the seeker process.

Victoria Polidoro  6:50  
Right. It means that when the individual projects come in, planning board meeting, the planning board will be may not be required to do a site specific seeker review, which is where a lot of that detailed analysis comes in. Right. the The other piece of this is there's a restriction on it's exempt, but it can't be more than 20% commercial. And so I know we have a requirement that we want some kind of mixed use on this large parcel, so if it's going to be more than 20% commercial, it may not fall within this exemption, anyways.

Karen Smythe  7:28  
Got it. I don't. I don't. If we're talking about the, I mean, the the Rocco project, there's the currently there's the home ownership, there's the rental apartments, and the barn to be turned into mixed use. So I can't imagine that that's more than 20% Right. So it might. I guess it depends on how you define 20% So

Victoria Polidoro  7:50  
from a policy perspective, you know, the governor pushed for these regulations because they want to make building housing easier. So you may not want to make up for it in your zoning law, or you may want to, depending on you know the level of review that you want to see happen. It probably

Karen Smythe  8:05  
depends on what the item is as well.

Bonnie Franson  8:08  
Well, I think from my perspective, you may just want to build it in there so the planning board can ask for it. Do they have to ask for it if it's a smaller development? Maybe not. But if you get to bigger developments, then you know it's you know 199 units, whatever the threshold is, you may want to give them that teeth. Whether they ask for it

Karen Smythe  8:32  
aside, aside from traffic study, what other

Bonnie Franson  8:36  
environmental, depending again on the property, I don't know, you know, and it it doesn't take away permitting authority from other agencies, but if, for instance, you wanted to do some kind of mini ecological survey for a property because it's 20 acres, again, I don't know that you would be able to ask for that. So I just think you need to kind of anticipate typical visual character, community character. Oftentimes, though, those are captured in special use permits, and we're not even talking about special use permit site plan or subdivision. You know, I think all of these things get affected.

Victoria Polidoro  9:20  
Right. I mean, I would say in the village generally is a built environment, and so we've been doing a lot of infill projects. And so Seeker hasn't been big concern because, you know, the it's not like you have endangered habitat on a small parcel of land usually, but as you head north, there is more potential to find areas that haven't been touched yet.

Karen Smythe  9:42  
Well, as I say, as we go north and as we go east, because that's sort of the edge of edge of the village and and less less developed. So, if there's a way to put a section that that somewhere that sort of covers that to provide that option,

Victoria Polidoro  10:01  
it almost sounds like

Karen Smythe  10:02  
maybe in the Bonnie and

Victoria Polidoro  10:03  
I didn't talk beforehand, but I was going to say you probably want something in the more general section, site plan standards that could be applied village wide. Right,

Bonnie Franson  10:11  
and then again, I think you know we would suggest language that says the planning board may request traffic study. Planning board may, and if it's in your zoning, it's required by your zoning as opposed to seeker. Right, exactly. So again, that was sort of a change evolution with changes in the seeker, and that I think again should be in the back of our mind as we consider.

Victoria Polidoro  10:38  
Also, as you go forward, this seeker review is going to be a little bit different than the last seeker review you did because there's two new sections to the environmental review. Right. Okay. One of them is DACA, which is impact on disadvantaged communities, and so there's

Bonnie Franson  10:55  
climate resilience and climate

Victoria Polidoro  10:57  
resiliency. So those are two sections that you didn't review when you did the land use planning document that you will have to review now.

Melkorka Kjarval  11:04  
And how do they define impacted communities? Right.

Victoria Polidoro  11:07  
There's a mapping tool. We can pull it up, but it has to do with census data.

Melkorka Kjarval  11:13  
So the most income-based.

Victoria Polidoro  11:14  
Yeah. Income

Bonnie Franson  11:16  
based. And it has to do with vulnerabilities. You know, population vulnerabilities. So it was impact on disadvantaged communities, and what was the other one? Climate resilience. Yeah, and it really has to do a lot with floodplain storms. It really focuses honestly on coastal risk, which you don't have to worry about. Right. If you're on the Hudson or contributing to the Hudson, some of those communities may have to consider it, you know, to the extent it's tidal. But beyond that, in general, it's not affecting. Yeah, we have a very

Karen Smythe  11:51  
teeny portion in the floodplain in the village. It's it's London Avenue, right? And you're

Bonnie Franson  11:57  
well away from, you know, I don't think. But

Karen Smythe  12:00  
certainly the northeast quadrant. The northeast quadrant isn't is is nowhere near the floodplain. We're not we're not affected by the Hudson River. Okay. We are more affected by stormwater management, basically, and a you know a major storm. There may be a buildup of of water.

Frances Uku  12:19  
So, do you mean these are two areas that we would need language for in the zoning law, because you said they're not in the comp plan as adopted.

Victoria Polidoro  12:27  
So it doesn't necessarily have to make its way into the zoning law, but when you do the environmental review of the potential impacts from the zoning law, you have to consider those two new sections. Okay, and so in considering them, if you want to add more zoning language? You can, but but it's just

Melkorka Kjarval  12:43  
like a section in the form that we have to fill in to say how it would affect you. Yeah,

Bonnie Franson  12:47  
it looks like there isn't a disadvantaged community, the village. It's actually encompassing around by Barrytown, Annandale, and Hudson. It includes Bard. Yeah, but and I think your dimension

Perry Allen  13:02  
district. Yeah, that's

Bonnie Franson  13:04  
interesting. But it's it's far enough away, I think, from the village that you wouldn't have to consider it because there's also adjacency. It's not just or proximity. It's not just if you have the DACA, but also

Victoria Polidoro  13:17  
right. You have to do it. So yeah, that's probably 1000s of.

Bonnie Franson  13:21  
Yeah, I think so.

Melkorka Kjarval  13:24  
Okay, but it's a new section. New section that we're going to have to have to fill out. Okay. All right. So

Bonnie Franson  13:31  
just one again to give you the other one. Just

Perry Allen  13:34  
in some new here, could you help me understand why we would put it in terms of May instead of just asking for it directly?

Bonnie Franson  13:40  
Because we don't know in advance what kind of project may come in. So, for instance, let's say someone wants to do a four-unit small multifamily building. That the need for traffic study is much less than someone coming in with 100 and so the planning board has its own consultants. They're accustomed to doing site-specific review, and it probably makes sense to give them, I think, that discretion. But it gets to the village board. What does it

Melkorka Kjarval  14:17  
cost usually for like a developer to do these kinds of studies?

Victoria Polidoro  14:21  
It's in the 1000s. In

Melkorka Kjarval  14:22  
the 1000s.

Victoria Polidoro  14:22  
Yeah, I mean, pulling basic ITE numbers, which are supplied by engineers, is easy. But then once you have to start doing the traffic counts at the different intersections, it's in 1000s.

Melkorka Kjarval  14:34  
Okay. So, like, if let's say there's like a, like we have in our meeting packet, like a local person that's trying to build a small four-person building. We we don't want to put that burden on them necessarily. Correct.

Victoria Polidoro  14:45  
Correct.

Melkorka Kjarval  14:45  
Yeah. Okay. It it is

Victoria Polidoro  14:47  
a it's a financial burden and it's a time burden because it takes time to review those kinds of documents and if it's not needed because, you know, Seeker gives some guidance and they say was 100 cars or less is generally not an impact. So you know, if you're, if we know that a four-unit project is so far below a threshold, it doesn't make sense. It

Perry Allen  15:10  
says 100 cars or less is not an impact. When when

Bonnie Franson  15:14  
when the EAF is prepared, there is a section that says what are the typical trips in during the peak period, so you don't even look at during the whole day. You look at if it's your AM peak typically or your PM peak, unless it's kind of project that generates a lot of traffic on a Saturday. So, so you're not even looking the totality of the trips, and so ITs, the Institute of Transportation engineers, they come up with these trip generation rates that you apply. So they'll say there's like one trip in the PM per dwelling unit. So if you have four, it's like four trips, and so there you don't really get into you know whole seeker analysis. But again, if you get to a more significant level, plus it's context because if they're proposing it next to an intersection that you know already has delays, yeah, then something smaller may trip a level of service, you know, issue. So that's why it's so, you know, site specific driven, and you rely on the planning board, you know, to document whether or not it should be done based on their knowledge of the area.

Henry Heintzman  16:23  
Okay, thank you.

Bonnie Franson  16:25  
Sure. So, so we had zoning draft, and we received comments at the same time from some trustees, former trustee, around the time that we did the planning study and got into public hearings, so I took a look at those comments, but we're really restarting the process. But some of these, you know, comments and considerations from the village board are based on a review of what had been previously submitted, and then of course, new board members. We want to hear from you what some of your concerns would be.

Frances Uku  17:05  
Bonnie, could I ask a question just before we move, because this will help help me anchor myself in the in the process. So, so we so we adopted the study.

Perry Allen  17:14  
Yes.

Frances Uku  17:14  
And now we're working on the zoning. Correct.

Frances Uku  17:17  
I had a question about so in the draft it says that that this is that the law we're thinking about. This is the draft, but it's enacted pursuant to the authority of municipal home law. My question is, why that and not village law?

Victoria Polidoro  17:31  
I can respond. New York State still has lots of very specific laws. So if you if you have go to a law library and you look at the laws of New York, it's chapter and chapter and chapter and chapter and chapter and chapter and chapter and chapter, right? So there's a couple of chapters of laws, and so the village law is a very specific set of laws where authority was granted to the village from the state. At some point, and maybe the 70s up. At some point, municipal home rule law was adopted, which gives the village broader powers than just that in the village law. And so, when you adopt zoning, we generally cite to municipal home rule law because it gives you a broader. You can consider laws for the general welfare rather than just the very specific laws in the village law.

Melkorka Kjarval  18:22  
That's why everyone like I remember when Hoco was doing that stuff about expanding housing stuff, home rule. Yeah.

Victoria Polidoro  18:30  
Yeah. Municipal home rule law gives it gave some power to the municipalities in addition to the power in the individual chapters, village law, town laws. Can

Melkorka Kjarval  18:38  
I turn one of the ACs off now? Now I'm cold.

Frances Uku  18:44  
Yeah, the question. I mean, the reason I ask is because I had been looking since we're moving from the study into the zoning law, and I had been looking at village law specifically on the comp plan to to law, and that does say that the law, any zoning law you develop, must be in accordance with the comprehensive plan. So having municipal home rule law, it just I I wasn't sure. Does that?

Victoria Polidoro  19:12  
It still needs to be consistent with the comp plan. Still that still applies.

Frances Uku  19:15  
Okay, okay. Yeah. So so then my question was because not just because there are new trustees, but actually, for me personally, just coming into it and kind of with your guidance, getting an understanding about how something goes from this from the comp plan to to the law. There, yeah, they're just just so. Am I correct to assume that we're basically looking at the at the study and then translate. I mean, translating, but kind of like yeah, translating your language.

Victoria Polidoro  19:50  
This is this is in effect implementing some of the ideas in the study. So because zoning has to be consistent with the comp plan, it doesn't have to be consistent with every aspect at the same time. So your comp plan is a document of vision for the village, right? Where do you see yourself? These are our goals. It doesn't mean that every time the village passes a law, it has to meet 100% of those goals. It just can't be inconsistent with the goals. So it may be that you want to take a small piece of implementation to start with, and say, okay, we have all these goals. We're going to start with goals one and two, or you could say we're going to do a very big law and get goals one to 10 out of the way now. So it has to be; it can't be inconsistent, but it doesn't need to be

Karen Smythe  20:34  
comprehensive.

Victoria Polidoro  20:34  
Be comprehensive. Yeah.

Karen Smythe  20:37  
But also, part of the process is once we've all gotten to the place where we're comfortable with where the document is. We then send it to county planning because county planning will look at it and say, "Is they'll make their determination if it's consistent with our.

Victoria Polidoro  20:51  
They'll they'll give comments, but their goal is more: how does it fit within region-wide impacts? You know, up and down Route Nine, that the travel corridors

Bonnie Franson  21:02  
intercommunity

Victoria Polidoro  21:03  
yeah intercommunity impact

Karen Smythe  21:04  
gotcha

Perry Allen  21:05  
that makes sense

Bonnie Franson  21:08  
yeah so they would consider whether it's they'll look at towns regulations they'll look at whether it's consistent with their plan adjacent properties they're supposed to look at it on a broader scale, not get into the the details.

Speaker 1  21:24  
Fantastic,

Bonnie Franson  21:25  
and that's part of the process. Is you do have to send it for general municipal law review, also. So you've had again the the draft in front of you. We do have comments that we wanted to go through because we were unclear whether some of this you wanted to implement at this time, or if you want to create separate laws or have a you know a different group put something together, so that's part of the purpose of this. I will say, Fran, you had sort of form-based code language when you had suggested some changes to the zoning. We're we're trying to stay within the existing formatting of the zoning. Having said that, I know the village has talked about kind of bigger picture going back and looking overall at the zoning and how the the zoning as a whole can be improved, and I think at that point, if the village wanted to consider, especially for your downtown area, your central business district, if you wanted to consider form-based, it's especially appropriate there. But I think that's kind of a bigger formatting, bigger question for the overall zoning.

Karen Smythe  22:38  
Can you can you describe a little bit what form-based is. Sure.

Bonnie Franson  22:42  
So form-based coding is a type of coding that relies more on the building form as opposed to even uses. That's the way it was set up. So it's caring more about what the development looks like as opposed to the regulations and the uses. So I know in your suggested draft there was information about setbacks, and you have an image of what a an infill building could look like. That's very that's very much like form-based coding. If you look at the town of Hyde Park, they created a mini form base code for the Pine Woods area because they want to, if and when they got sewer, they wanted to reconfigure their shopping centers into something that's more like a traditional kind of community, for instance, Eastdale is very much following that. I shouldn't say very much entirely, but follows to a large degree form-based code coding, creating that traditional look. So it's something that can be done, but at this point, we had already gone down the path of creating something that's more of a conventional zoning, and I think you can revisit it. But I would revisit it, you know, overall to see where that makes sense for the village.

Melkorka Kjarval  24:12  
Can you explain infill really quickly? Just

Bonnie Franson  24:14  
sure. So infill is just simply redoing development, redesigning development. If there's a vacant lot within an overall built environment, putting in development that fits contextually with the area, unless you're trying to make, you know, a change. So, for example, if it's sort of a strip commercial area and all the parking's in the front, and a new infill development comes in based on the planning study, based on the zoning. You may want to start to create that more village-like feel with pushing the building front forward, parking in the back. But it's really talking about filling in the gaps, placing missing teeth

Melkorka Kjarval  24:58  
almost. Yes, yes,

Bonnie Franson  25:00  
yep, exactly.

Karen Smythe  25:01  
And I think the other thing that we've talked a little bit about form-based and the way our current zoning is is that we have a list of allowable uses, and the idea behind form-based is it's a little bit more it allows for more uses, more uses because you don't have to think of what they all are. The downside is you have to think of the uses that you don't want, because if someone comes in and says, "I want to do whatever, unless you've said except for these things, they're allowable. And I know that I can't think of all the things that I don't want here. But you can think about

Bonnie Franson  25:34  
what you won't do want. And so

Karen Smythe  25:36  
that's the the flip side is they are. I don't want

Perry Allen  25:39  
that public hearing. Let's all share what we and and

Karen Smythe  25:42  
one thing. thing that we have done already is if there, I mean, the groupings that we have are trying to be wide enough so that it fits a lot of flexibility. You know, it provides a lot of you know retail. Retail covers a lot of things, but if there's something specifically missing, so we had childcare that was allowed in one area but wasn't mentioned in another, which therefore makes it not allowed. We added it, so we can just do a local law, we we do a public hearing, and a seeker, and we pass it. So it is we're not fixed forever with the list we have here, and this list also is related to the experience we've had with the list that we have now.

Bonnie Franson  26:24  
Our our experience also has been that because communities are so used to dealing with uses and wanting to say what's allowed, they end up doing something that's almost hybrid. So they they have the form based because they want the project to look a certain way. They want it to meet certain form-based standards, but they still put the uses in because they can't just let go, and they really want to say what's allowed in that zoning district. So you see that a lot too, and there's no right way, wrong way. It's just ultimately collectively how you want to implement your zoning.

Frances Uku  26:57  
But since we have the since we have the opportunity of this district, I guess I'm not clear on why why this one has to match what everything else like why we can start with a form based in this district and try it out and then even decide maybe we don't want form based in the in the general business district maybe we do want to change what is there in the gen in the base code because formula business is currently allowed in the general business district. Maybe we don't want that. So I guess I'm not understanding why this couldn't. I mean, yes, to the mayor's point about uses, there are things, but I think that having the permitted uses actually it it discriminates against innovative. It it like okay. Here are the things that we know, but not the things that could come up. And as long as you're, I I feel from the study that our focus was for the buildings, whatever happens in there, to feel like the rest of the village, for it to look, for it to be accessible, walking like

Bonnie Franson  28:02  
certain elements, yes. Not all elements. No,

Frances Uku  28:05  
sure, not not all. So,

Bonnie Franson  28:06  
so definitely pedestrian oriented. Definitely the buildings facing, you know, having more of a relationship to that pedestrian realm. But what's different about, I would say, Broadway North is that it's not where you have row style buildings. It's not where you have that traditional downtown. There's actually spaces in between, and it it breaks up the massing. It feels a little less dense, and it differentiates a bit from your more traditional. It's it's like a transition going from your traditional downtown toward a rural atmosphere. From my perspective, I get it. You know that's what's there, and I think that's what we're still trying to achieve. We're not trying to create what you have as your traditional center downtown and extending it farther up, it's it's a little different in terms of its character.

Victoria Polidoro  29:04  
So to answer your question on the legal part, there's you could do this district as its own form-based district. There's nothing legally that would say you can't do that. You would have to do work to incorporate it into your existing structure. But that's not what you have before you, and so if you were going to do that form-based code, you know this draft that you have is not that. So really, you'd be kind of starting over from square one. So from a policy, it's a policy question of you know what does the board want to do? What is the board's timing? Right? What is the cost? I think it is much more expensive to do form-based code because you have to you have to kind of plan out what each lot is going to look like in theory because you have to have regulations. So the difference, some difference between form-based and other code. Regular zoning tells you what you can't do. You can't build within 10 feet of any property line. You can't build more than three structures. You can't build a flat roof if you're commercial. The form-based says you have to build this building or this building or this building, and if the lot is this size, you have to add a porch, and if the lot is this size, you have to add a portico. And it's more of like a like a menu. I read it like a menu. So it's telling you what you have to do.

Melkorka Kjarval  30:22  
It's closer to the pattern book, but the pattern book is not that far. Doesn't go correct. It's more like the pattern

Victoria Polidoro  30:27  
book and says, you know, this is the the style that we want. We want you to fill out the lot. We want you to have at least three stories. Yeah, like private room. There's a public road. I'm simplifying it, but to me that's the difference, right? One is saying you can't do these things; the other saying you have to do these, and so you have to have a very good idea of what it is you want everyone to do. Can I? I'm just going to say

Melkorka Kjarval  30:52  
one thing. I have a understanding that it is more expensive to do infill building, which is often why people try not to do it, right? They like to to build an infill, like if they were to replace and do an infill where that building used to be right here, like an actual three-story, that would be more expensive than doing a one-story flat commercial space. So often people don't do infill for that reason.

Victoria Polidoro  31:16  
Well, they don't do good infill. Okay, appropriate infill.

Melkorka Kjarval  31:20  
And then the other thing is that we've talked about how when people are thinking of doing a business, there are costs to them going through the planning process. So sometimes they like to be able to look at a used menu and know it's certain that it's approved, rather than that it will be very. They don't know whether or not it'll be approved. It's true. Yeah. But

Victoria Polidoro  31:39  
you know, there's still variables. Yeah. It's still going in for some level of review. So the city of Kingston just did a form-based code. It's a little bit hybrid because they have a use table and the the pictures. Yeah. So you still have to fit within the uses. Yeah. And then if you do, then you get to build certain buildings, and then they they've done different levels of review. Yeah. So some buildings just get approved by their full-time building department and planning department. They they have full-time staff who can sit in and review these applications and decide if it fits or not. Then there's a second level of review for things that you know meet a certain threshold. So that's that's how they're implementing their form-based code. Yeah. You know, maybe you could call and ask them how they like it and how it's working.

Karen Smythe  32:24  
But if they have a list of uses, that means it's not a pure form-based code. It's a hybrid. It's hybrid. Correct. Interesting. But

Perry Allen  32:30  
but you could do

Victoria Polidoro  32:31  
it. But it is starting over, and so again, it's a discussion for you guys. It's something you want to do.

Perry Allen  32:37  
You had mentioned the pattern book. Is there a way of giving our pattern book more teeth so that thus we don't have to necessarily. Does that give us a hybrid without? I mean, I think

Victoria Polidoro  32:46  
the pattern book is a good starting point, but it would have to be rewritten for it because the pattern book deals with mostly this center part of the village, which is very different than what at least what this vision is right now for the northern part of the building. You almost

Melkorka Kjarval  33:02  
have to like decide what the build out is that you want. Like we'd almost have to design it, and then say what it is we want, which is a whole other thing. Right. That's like that's a level of investment on the village's part that's a little different than how we have to. Yeah, because

Frances Uku  33:16  
that's what we did with the study. That's what we did with study. No, we

Melkorka Kjarval  33:19  
should talk about like this is where the building would be. This is where we want the building be. This is like the actual setback. Not you can build up to this. We're saying that it has to be here. Like you'd have to. We don't always have to. Right? You're saying that. Like we'd have to shut it up to a developer.

Bonnie Franson  33:33  
You know, and and often. So what what's happening here? Not that it's form based, but there are standards. So, for instance, you can still have form-based standards, such as you can have a zero-foot setback, but no more than let's say 10 feet. Yeah. So that's very typical because again, you want the building relationship to to the street. If you want something that's not exactly like your central business district again, something that's more transitional. You do have a little bit of a setback, and you say, "Well, maybe people will put patios in the front. You know, you try to get them to do something that's again that public realm. But so you can deal with it under your traditional zoning, and this zoning does discuss the pattern book and architectural guidelines, and the intent is to follow them. But again, there there I think is a I think the pattern book reflects really focusing in on your especially on your central business district, where this is a little bit different in terms of again, almost a little more of a transition out to or toward the the rural.

Melkorka Kjarval  34:47  
And they talk a lot about like almost like our gridded site, like neighborhoods. It's like very yeah, it's totally different topography there and scales. And

Victoria Polidoro  34:57  
and you don't necessarily want, or maybe you do, but there's like Italian style homes and Victorian style homes which may not fit because it's a different district, different feel.

Frances Uku  35:08  
So is that it? Okay, so this is board. This is not professionals because that that feel of the village as currently with all the things that we set forth in the comp plan. I thought that was what we wanted for this district, like for it to look more like the historical parts of the village, and for it to feel like, I mean, what it sounds like I'm hearing is that we we we want to keep it as it looks right now.

Bonnie Franson  35:36  
No, I don't know, and I don't

Karen Smythe  35:39  
think that's reflected in here either. I mean, you know, it's not going to look like this. But we also don't have a consistent look. If you look at the fran, I mean, we have a lot of different variation of types of houses. For example, there isn't sort of it's not Victorian, it's not, but we have all of it, which is kind of fun. But there's also a reality of the space that's over there. What we want to do is fit it as best we can into the same feel of of the village, and I don't think that using using our traditional zoning precludes us from doing that. I don't think it requires form-based to to to go there.

Bonnie Franson  36:18  
It's interesting. Form-based coding actually honestly works the best when it's a vacant big property that someone's trying to do a you know multi-use mixed-use development. But when you start to get into, in fact, look at your pattern book. There was an image of what you wanted that area to look like, but it's that's probably never going to happen, just because there's buildings there already. So,

Frances Uku  36:46  
but I mean, with with sale with transfer of ownership, it could look different. Like it

Bonnie Franson  36:53  
will look different. It will evolve, but it's going to evolve in a much more incremental way, and it may never achieve what is shown in that pattern book image, but you'll-it's aspirational and sure, like a compliment, right? Exactly. The other thing that's tricky

Melkorka Kjarval  37:12  
about that spot is both that the parcels are weird and already established, but it's also that the topography is kind of wacky. Yes,

Bonnie Franson  37:20  
yeah, exactly. So, do you think it'd be helpful to just walk them through how the how the draft is set up and different sections? Sure. So, in terms of so this is an introductory local law. Local laws always have a title, and so this is to create this mixed-use zoning district, Gateway Newark, the authority, as we discussed already, authority to municipality law. You give your local laws a purpose and findings. You know why are you actually adopting this local law? And then we get into the revisions to Chapter 200. Chapter 200 is your zoning for the village of Red Hawk, and so 213 is adding. I'm looking at the yeah, it's

Karen Smythe  38:10  
listed as reserved right now. It's not used.

Bonnie Franson  38:13  
Correct. So 213 becomes Gateway North, and then that gets into this description and intent of what you're trying to achieve within this new zoning district, and that's actually pretty important because a community will rely on that intent when they're saying, you know, your project doesn't meet this. Just like you're going off to rely on your comprehensive plan, your land use study, to rely on this is what we intended. You're not meeting it. We talk about the uses that will require site plan approval, and then one of the you know really important sections in the local law are the permitted principal uses. And so, if you recall the land use study, it had comparison of several zoning districts that constituted the area before we create this gateway north, and there have been discussions over this time period of what you want to see within this particular zoning district, and so this is the list as it exists today. If there's not a if there's not a definition, we've added definitions. But for the most part, a lot of the definitions already exist, or it's just apparent what the use is. You know, it may not even need a definition. Your zoning usually says look to the dictionary if there's not a if there's not a definition, and so to the extent that these are customary uses, you would just rely on a dictionary level.

Melkorka Kjarval  39:55  
And then banned uses are like within other sections, right? It's not like

Bonnie Franson  39:59  
prohibited uses. Yeah, prohibited use. Yes. Yeah. Then we get into permitted accessory uses. So accessory uses are those uses that are accessory to the primary use, and they're typically parking signs, temporary structures, an EV charging station. Those are your typical accessory uses. Then there's a section called uses for which the planning board may issue a special permit. A special use permit, by law, is a permitted use, but it has to meet additional standards. And in general, some communities will call something a special use, have no standards, and it's unclear why you're calling it a special use, other than you're requiring a public hearing, because special uses require have to have a public hearing. If it's only subject to site plan approval, and it's a permitted use, a public hearing is optional, so at a minimum, you've decided with that special use that you want a public hearing. But really, a well-drafted law will provide standards, and that's what you're providing. They have to meet those standards to be allowed. But if they meet them, then they're permitted use. That's I don't know. I want to say that any currently. Yeah, I mean

Victoria Polidoro  41:22  
the classic example of this is, you know, churches in a residential district. You see them everywhere. Generally, it's permitted, but they get an extra level of review because you want to make sure that you know the traffic when everyone comes and leaves at the same time, that they can handle the traffic and noise and outdoor events. So that's a type of special use permit. I just want to add also that the way this is laid out is consistent with how your other chapters are laid out.

Melkorka Kjarval  41:52  
Okay. So

Victoria Polidoro  41:52  
it follows the same style of words and format as the other chapters in your code.

Frances Uku  42:03  
I had a question just about me, and I don't know if you wanted to. So, so, so in the study, we had said that we were interested in we wanted to allow for limited mixed use and to have apartments above buildings and that that kind of development with green space between. But but indeed, basically d1 where you have apartments. So we're saying there that to be able to build apartments above that they would need to appear before the planning board.

Bonnie Franson  42:35  
That's consistent with the other sections of. Pretty sure it's consistent with other sections of the code. That's

Frances Uku  42:40  
right. No, I'm sure it is. I know. Is it for

Karen Smythe  42:42  
fire stop? Is it usually coming? That would really be a site plan review. I mean, you're basically you're changing you're changing a building.

Victoria Polidoro  42:51  
It's also special use permit. So there are special standards for apartments. So it says here 200-31. So those right now the standards are, you know, minimum size of the apartment. You want to make sure you have a standard about how many bedrooms. You didn't want all single bedroom apartments, so there's a mix that's required. So 20% have to have two or more bedrooms, so you get some for families. So there was a policy decision made at some point, that you wanted to review apartments and that you wanted to make sure that they meet these thresholds, and so that's being continued in this law. And you can change

Frances Uku  43:28  
it if

Victoria Polidoro  43:28  
you don't want that, but that's that's what's being proposed.

Bonnie Franson  43:36  
I think you wanted some standards so that you didn't end up with 100 square foot apartments,

Victoria Polidoro  43:41  
studios, studios, you know, all studios,

Bonnie Franson  43:43  
right, and and that related to the parking available, other that's what you would view as part of a site plan specialist permit,

Karen Smythe  43:53  
and the fact that it's that this that the Gateway North will be a mixed use district allows for apartments on the second floor, and there's I believe there's a section in here that says on the frontage, retail has to be on the bottom, and then apartments can be on the second floor. Correct.

Frances Uku  44:11  
Sure, allows for, but you still have to go before the planning board, and you have to, yeah. And we'll we'll we'll get into as you go along, but I I feel like there is a there's a lot of discretion passed on to the planning board. That I it's also it's a decision for the board, but yes, there there's a lot of

Karen Smythe  44:31  
what discretion do you feel should should not be given to the planning board? We have

Frances Uku  44:35  
several sections like D that we just started talking about uses for which the planning board may issue a special permit in accordance with the provisions. This shall be as follows, and so this, as proposed, and there are several other places in the in the draft law where decisions that because we write the law, right? The law is written here, but then we have all of all of this discretion that is left with the planning board, which you know, it's just an opinion, and mine is that.

Bonnie Franson  45:05  
What discretion would you not want to be left to the planning board? Are you saying it should be an easier process? Easier process. So you think that by?

Frances Uku  45:14  
It's exactly Mel Cooker's point before that.

Melkorka Kjarval  45:18  
Okay, go ahead. Yeah, we'll see if yeah, go ahead.

Frances Uku  45:21  
Removing. Removing barriers to people creating businesses or to development. I mean, I thought that's what you were saying-that like it can be onerous if you have all of you know-and it's expensive. That's what I understood by what you said, but perhaps I'm wrong. But the

Karen Smythe  45:36  
role of the planning board is merely to review someone specific proposal for a specific site to make sure that it confirms with the parameters that we, the board, have put in place.

Speaker 2  45:52  
Right. There's not a lot of the planning board is very limited because planning

Victoria Polidoro  45:56  
boards don't have. Right. So the word may here the the planning board couldn't just deny the apartments because it felt like it. It could only deny it based on whether or not it complies with the criteria of that section and the other criteria in the code, which the village board has said is applicable. So, it the planning board does have discretion as far as determining you know is the lighting too bright or the are the trees the right height and the right species? But they can't say we don't like apartments. Therefore, therefore we're denying this.

Frances Uku  46:28  
No, I understand. But just what you said there about the tree species and the all the things we can. Why can't we put that in in the code here?

Victoria Polidoro  46:35  
So I mean, you can you could you could theoretically derive the zoning law in such a way that there's no planning board. You're not required to have a planning board, and that if someone comes in with something that complies, they automatically get a permit from the building inspector. But that does two things. One, your building inspector is then the one who's sitting there determining if something complies or not, and so

Bonnie Franson  46:59  
he doesn't have yeah by law he doesn't have discretion. Right. I mean, I guess it would be ministerial at that point. Right. So if it meets it, even if you think if it looks ugly and if it isn't achieving right, you know, the spirit of it, the spirit of it, then you lose the review. Yeah.

Frances Uku  47:15  
No, I get it. But if we made sure that if you can't build ugly, if you can't build ugly buildings, then how would but who decides what's ugly or not? That's the discretion. We do. Yeah, that's kind of like one of the traditions,

Melkorka Kjarval  47:27  
right? The traditional neighborhood district that sort of went that direction. You have you read that zoning code for the town? No, it's very specific. No, I'm just saying that it goes to that almost that level of like look this way, this way, this half of a treasure.

Frances Uku  47:39  
Yeah,

Melkorka Kjarval  47:40  
it's almost like it spells it out that specifically. It means it's expensive to build that because it becomes so specific. Sorry, go ahead. No, no, that's right.

Victoria Polidoro  47:47  
You have to a be very clear on what you're going to design for each lot. And the problem is, all the lots. If you were starting from scratch, right? If you were Disney and building a utopia, it's very easy to say, you know, you can create something very uniform with standards that meet every layer of lot, but because we're dealing with you know people gave 10 feet to their neighbor 10 years ago, the lots can be inconsistent sizes. It's very hard to say that what you can do on one lot is going to apply to every single lot,

Henry Heintzman  48:18  
which

Victoria Polidoro  48:18  
is why the planning board has this discretion because sometimes the parking has to work one way when ideally it would work a different way. So that's the reason why you have site plan reviews, especially on commercial properties, because you want to make sure that what's being laid out, you know, works for fire safety, works for the village, meets minimum design standards. You don't have to have a planning board. the The other option is the village board could decide to be the one to issue all the permits, but then you're going to be meeting a few more times a month, probably.

Melkorka Kjarval  48:50  
And they take lots of training and sort of like the ideas are supposed to help find the solution, right? Like, yeah.

Victoria Polidoro  48:56  
So that it's a it's a decision for for the village, but the village has made a decision to have a planning board, and you can take review away from it. You can decide.

Frances Uku  49:09  
These are all questions because I'm learning. They're good questions.

Bonnie Franson  49:14  
Yeah, there there are some boards where the town board retains review over certain uses, certain.

Victoria Polidoro  49:21  
Yeah, like in the town of Dover, for instance, if you want to build like a power plant, it doesn't go to the planning board. The town board does that review, and it worked. I mean, they built a power plant 10 years ago, so

Karen Smythe  49:34  
they did. So not sure everyone agrees that it worked. Well, I mean, the transfer

Victoria Polidoro  49:40  
of power worked, went to the town board. Yes,

Bonnie Franson  49:43  
section E is getting into, and again, it's narrative like this because it is following the format of other sections, and so these are all the area, yard height, parking space, the different standards that would apply to any development within the GN zoning district, I want to bring up something. So, in as much as you have the Rockco property and you have the Ross property, and we've created this PRD special use where they could create this kind of planned community, they can. They are in this GN zone. They can put anything on that property that is allowed within the zone. So you should be mindful of that and think about whether all the uses that we've just described, you know, would be okay on all the properties that we've identified within the GM zone, because I think there's this, you know, almost. I know there was someone had raised a question about is it spot zoning, and it's not spot zoning because the zoning is applying to a whole bunch of properties, but that means that each and every one of those properties could apply to any of these uses.

Melkorka Kjarval  51:07  
So if we didn't have uses and they Ruppco decide not to go through the property, they sold it and $1 General bought it. They could put $1 General up there.

Karen Smythe  51:18  
Except we don't allow formula businesses, so that would fall under.

Melkorka Kjarval  51:22  
Well, we but that would be a year. Yeah, that's in here. We don't have it currently. We allow formula businesses, don't we?

Victoria Polidoro  51:28  
I believe you do

Melkorka Kjarval  51:29  
currently. Yeah, it's only the town that doesn't allow formula. I

Victoria Polidoro  51:31  
think you don't allow formula restaurants. You were you're. I think you're trying to throw formula businesses

Bonnie Franson  51:37  
in. Yes, I think that way businesses. Yes, sorry, it

Karen Smythe  51:40  
would it would fall under what we have, what's allowed within the general the Gateway North district. But they could do all these things. I mean, they could have a whole. They could do a whole little. They could have a whole little shop. There's a brand new road. They could, you know, something. It could be all commercial.

Bonnie Franson  52:00  
Yeah, it could be all commercial instead of right residential. They still have to meet whatever the standards are. There's still review process.

Melkorka Kjarval  52:07  
That's a good point. I didn't know that.

Bonnie Franson  52:08  
Yeah, yeah, and that's one of the things that we've been talking about because you need to think about okay, so if they decide not to do the PRD,

Melkorka Kjarval  52:19  
yeah,

Bonnie Franson  52:20  
what is the maximum development they could do?

Melkorka Kjarval  52:23  
Yeah,

Bonnie Franson  52:23  
and the apartments, the multifamily, except we're changing this in the zoning. You know, when you say all the all that you're regulating is let's say size 600 square feet, that could mean a lot of housing. But one of the things we're trying to produce is sort of a sliding scale. That the bigger the property, you start to reduce down the density, so you don't have a lot more than what you anticipated in your land use study. So when we hit that section, we could talk about it. But again, this is something that I just want everybody to be cognizant of, and if we need to change something because of that concern, then we should be doing it at this time. So height, coverage, residential buffers, preservation of natural features. Preservation of natural features is because of the fact you have that ridge sloping up, and you want to be careful of eliminating a lot of trees to make it very visible. You know, you're used to having that little knoll. We're trying to accommodate that. F gets into just access in general, number and spacing across lots and multiple ownership. We're trying to create cross connections so people aren't going out onto the, you know, onto North Broadway and then coming back into North Broadway by having those cross connections to the extent you can. We talk about the parallel road that was discussed a lot in land use study that we're trying to create, and it may not be a village road. It may be a drive that all these different lot owners have access to, but we're trying to create that parallel drive to then be able to possibly even put development in the back, that would be serviced by it, so that's why there's reference to the parallel road in this particular zoning,

Frances Uku  54:28  
and that's parallel to nine, correct? Right. And so, how do we anticipate the entry to that parallel road from nine?

Bonnie Franson  54:38  
Right now, well, I think the idea was Cherry.

Frances Uku  54:42  
Can't be Cherry. Cherry's tiny, and

Karen Smythe  54:46  
well, having Grave Street go straight through does the intersection of Graves and Cherry, then goes into CVS, and then turning that into a drive or a road, as opposed to just an access to CVS.

Frances Uku  54:59  
Right. Right, and that's that's something that we would, I mean, I guess discuss among. But that needs to be decided because we have, if Robco is coming, like we need to make sure that that can fit in with the village as is, and so that's a major traffic concern. So I guess that's something that that we need to discuss as far as how that. Also, like even Rockco's plan, like they need to be able to construction and with the residents, like how is it going to happen?

Bonnie Franson  55:28  
So, couple things: the parallel road is in land use study, and so that's why you rely on that land use study. You go back to it because it shows you where you wanted it. So it was Cherry Graves going in. The reality is that parallel road at this point is entirely privately owned, and so for Rupco to be able to use the parallel road, you would somehow have to grant them access to it. If Rupco comes in first, you might put into place some design mechanisms to allow the connection in the future, but until you cobble together easements or whatever is required to get that road in, again, this is an incremental process. This is evolutionary. It may not happen at the time that Robco comes in,

Victoria Polidoro  56:18  
but you might want them to plan around

Bonnie Franson  56:20  
it. Plan around it, put a connection in, so that in the future, yes, it can be connected.

Melkorka Kjarval  56:27  
Oh, sorry. Go ahead. We've discussed the idea of a street map, right? Which is something where you decide. Yeah, where you decide where wants where you want it to be, and then they can't build like a building footprint in that space, so that it's preserved in the future, whenever there, you know, property owners would want to do it. So you want to touch upon that?

Victoria Polidoro  56:47  
Yeah. So that's called an official street map. It's something that the village can do. We aren't going to provide you with a memo on, you know, what it is and how to adopt it. Great. But you would need to undertake a mapping exercise and plan how the road should be in that corridor, which would require the assistance of an engineer.

Bonnie Franson  57:07  
Can you talk a little about what it does and what it doesn't do? Because you have to avoid takings and

Victoria Polidoro  57:14  
right. So, the official map, in the first instance, it shows where the roads are. You can't get a permit to build in the map in the bed of a mapped road. Okay. So if you have a planned road there, and someone comes in and says, "I want to put my house right here,

Perry Allen  57:30  
the

Victoria Polidoro  57:30  
building inspector, it's supposed to be a flag, right? They're going to look at it and say, "Nope, can't do that, unless, and then they either have to be able to get an area variance for it,

Melkorka Kjarval  57:41  
okay,

Victoria Polidoro  57:41  
or at some point, the village may have to put in the road, or it could become a taking if there's no other place to build on the property. So there are some implications, and as I said, we're putting together a memo for you to consider.

Melkorka Kjarval  57:52  
What's the implication of a taking?

Victoria Polidoro  57:55  
Well, if if a taking, you may have to pay them for the value of the road going through the property,

Bonnie Franson  58:02  
you would have to be able to take the property.

Victoria Polidoro  58:04  
It's it's sort of like when we did the easements and we had the sewer easements. We had to go buy the sewer easement from. So it's like an eminent domain

Melkorka Kjarval  58:11  
process, but we're not using that word. Yeah, we were avoiding that. I'm not saying

Frances Uku  58:18  
that. Yeah, no, it's definitely better. But but there are so for instance, and this is this is just throwing things out there, right? So so the lot the CVS lot is currently owned by CVS, correct? Right, and so it's not necessary. This is just again something that I threw out that possibly if you just imagine like where the CVS entrance is now, if that just went out to wherever it is that we decide the parallel road is, the

Bonnie Franson  58:42  
Cherry Graves. We we actually have an easement for

Victoria Polidoro  58:45  
that. When CVS came in to build the building, yeah, the planning board worked with

Henry Heintzman  58:51  
them

Victoria Polidoro  58:51  
to get an easement so that if that ever became a road, there would be access through the lot that way. And we're talking

Melkorka Kjarval  58:57  
about going north, not going not going.

Frances Uku  59:00  
You have to yes parallel, but to get to the parallel you have to go, you have to go east. Well, east

Melkorka Kjarval  59:07  
they're the easement is to go north. The easement is not to go out nine. I think she's talking about the entrance onto nine. Oh yeah, no, it's

Victoria Polidoro  59:14  
not to go on to route nine. It's it's just only to go across the lot north. Or

Karen Smythe  59:18  
the existing entrances to go to the back in the

Frances Uku  59:21  
back, the parking where the parking is, so that you can presumably take a road up that way.

Speaker 3  59:26  
Yes, got

Frances Uku  59:27  
you, got you, got you. Okay, because just going back to the cherry grapes, my right. 

Victoria Polidoro  59:32  
You don't want to rub.

Victoria Polidoro  59:33  
You may not want to rub.

Frances Uku  59:34  
May not. That's good. That's a lawyer. You may not. Well, I think the

Bonnie Franson  59:38  
land you study, one of the things it talked about was traffic calming.

Frances Uku  59:42  
Yes, because

Bonnie Franson  59:43  
to do that connection, there was concern that what are the implications for those existing roads? Correct. So at the time that that may happen, you may say, "All right, we're going to do one way, or we're going to put in some kind of mechanism to calm traffic, slow traffic down. There are a variety of mechanisms, but until it's about to happen and it gets studied, you can only say what possibly could happen. But then you ultimately would pick and choose what you think should be implemented to address any concerns regarding that connection. So,

Karen Smythe  1:00:22  
yeah, and I think that's the same with the Ross property. Their outlet is on Cherry Street, so there will be when they develop, there will be there will be an entrance into into the Ross property that way, and ideally that would be a road that would go up to the Rockway property and then connect to Camp Lane to come out. So, and there would logically stop signs there as as a way to. And that's the cherry's just not that big, and so it it would slow people down by having to stop there, and then they have to stop at Graves, and then they get to Route Nine. So,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:01:02  
can I ask a question just about the format of the? We're going through that. This we're just going

Bonnie Franson  1:01:07  
through the law itself, and we're going to go through the

Melkorka Kjarval  1:01:09  
questions. Okay,

Bonnie Franson  1:01:10  
questions. Landscaping, outdoor storage. Again, you're trying to kind of control the esthetics there. Sidewalks and lighting. You want them to be interconnected. Dark sky standards to minimize lighting levels. This is subject to architectural review by the planning board. Recreational facilities. So this is a general provision that's almost in all zoning codes, and it essentially establishes that where you're proposing new dwelling units, that you have the ability, if if that project cannot provide recreation on site, that you have the ability to request a fee in lieu of providing the recreation. Having said that, you really need a study to be able to charge the fee.

Perry Allen  1:02:10  
Yeah.

Bonnie Franson  1:02:11  
So that's sort of a separate little. So can

Karen Smythe  1:02:15  
we we can leave this in here, and and then in the meantime we can do the study and determine what the fee would be.

Victoria Polidoro  1:02:22  
Sure, the way it's drafted, it says in an amount established by the village board of trustees. So until such time as you establish that amount, it can't be implemented.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:02:31  
Right. Okay.

Bonnie Franson  1:02:32  
And I think the planning board has to make the finding right that you cannot locate, you know,

Victoria Polidoro  1:02:39  
park or parks suitably sized for the needs of the residents on a parcel, right?

Melkorka Kjarval  1:02:45  
But that could possibly be income that we allows us to maintain public spaces for everybody, which is great.

Victoria Polidoro  1:02:50  
It's the comptroller has lots of opinions on what you can use recreation money for. It goes into a trust fund, so it can't just be used for payroll or general maintenance. You have to really use it for creating new recreational spaces for the new residents. Oh,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:03:08  
it has to be new,

Victoria Polidoro  1:03:09  
new or improved.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:03:10  
Okay, interesting. It can be quiz truck too, right? Yeah, you can do like

Bonnie Franson  1:03:14  
a new tenant. You can do

Victoria Polidoro  1:03:15  
upgrades and you can improve, but it's not it's not intended to be for just

Bonnie Franson  1:03:20  
yeah you have to keep it in a

Bonnie Franson  1:03:22  
separate account. You have to account for. You can't just mix it and commingle it with your with your general funding.

Karen Smythe  1:03:30  
And I think that's part of what's allowing the town to do all that they've done in the rec parks and extend the rec park, etc. Yeah. So it would be new. You know, as we're looking at Abraham's Park. It would be new things we're putting in. Yeah, but once we put them in, it would be replacing them or gutter. Right. Yeah. We're not looking at tennis courts in the village. But

Frances Uku  1:03:51  
sorry, not to take us back. Just to Eve, where where where we had for coverage. So for each of of these lots, we're saying that the maximum coverage would be 35% So, so of the of the lot, like you're restricted to just 35 and the rest is

Bonnie Franson  1:04:11  
is coverage. I believe your coverage is based on buildings. Let me just check. Yeah, that's right.

Frances Uku  1:04:20  
Because that sounds middle.

Bonnie Franson  1:04:22  
It when it's for buildings, because a lot of the space is taken up by parking. It's the percentage

Victoria Polidoro  1:04:33  
of the lot covered by the building area. So it's just the building, provided that in the MMU district, coverage shall be the percentage of the area. Well, it's in the MMU. It's different,

Karen Smythe  1:04:45  
but also thinking thinking about the commercial businesses there. I mean, we want the front to become more of a public space, so the parking would need to go in the back, and so you have both the front section and the back section that would have to be open in order to do that. If you could cover that whole space, then you'd have to. You'd probably end up having to use the fran for parking, which is not what we want. Maybe you could maybe provisions in here

Frances Uku  1:05:09  
already to keep the parking from being it. I mean, well, coming to it because there's 150, like there's a 150 foot setback, which is which is quite residential.

Victoria Polidoro  1:05:22  
Yeah, I mean, you could do a mock. You could probably create a mock-up and see what that looks like pretty easily.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:05:28  
Is there a difference? And often I've heard that the coverage has to do with kind of almost like the sewer impact too, because you want a certain amount of like, like you can't if you build out a full building in a thing like that could be like a lot. That

Karen Smythe  1:05:41  
that section's on the sewer, on the municipal sewer.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:05:44  
No, what I'm saying is, do we have a different overlay for places that are on the sewer versus not? We don't currently. We haven't changed that provision. The

Karen Smythe  1:05:51  
section that we, I don't think so. But that section that we're talking about is that's all covered. This general

Victoria Polidoro  1:05:58  
business district has a higher maximum coverage than your residential. I know,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:06:02  
but there are people that are not in the business that have sewer that still are, you know, don't get that benefit. It's just an interesting thought, right? Like you should maybe be able to, if you are paying higher rates, be able to have higher coverage. Yeah, in that district area. I see what I'm saying.

Bonnie Franson  1:06:22  
I mean, there's some communities, and again, we're we're following the format that already exists. Yeah, but there are many communities that don't regulate building coverage; they regulate the entire impervious surface coverage. Yeah, because the concern is often not about the building and the parking, but having some green space, so you'll say you could go as high as 90% impervious, which would be the parking and the buildings. But it's assuring that at least 10% has to be green. That could be a strip in the front, you know, based on all the other standards. But this village appears to regulate building coverage, not improvise surface. Right, and so if you want to make sure there's landscaping, it's interesting. It was like he

Melkorka Kjarval  1:07:09  
said that it was part of my coverage.

Bonnie Franson  1:07:12  
Your patio, yeah, because it's in use.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:07:15  
It's not. I mean, having the neighborhood

Victoria Polidoro  1:07:17  
mixed use. No, it doesn't extend.

Frances Uku  1:07:19  
No.

Karen Smythe  1:07:21  
Interesting.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:07:21  
Anyway, learning. So I think I think that's a but

Karen Smythe  1:07:24  
you know a question is to say is 35% coverage is ultimately that's that's an easy it's an easy thing to change if we if we choose correct but what you're saying is the 35% is is reflective of what we what we have in other areas not the general business district but the other yeah other

Bonnie Franson  1:07:41  
areas, and and again, can it be changed? Yes, I think it's just trying to line it with other areas, plus knowing that parking has to be provided as well. And and again, there's regulating building as opposed to impervious. So we're trying to create something for building, which was designed

Melkorka Kjarval  1:08:00  
to be impervious. By the way, no one made a mistake on the village's side. Sorry.

Frances Uku  1:08:05  
Oh, you mean your? Yeah, yeah. I

Melkorka Kjarval  1:08:09  
couldn't afford the bluestone, so eventually I could put bluestone down. I just realized I was implying that the village had done something

Karen Smythe  1:08:15  
wrong.

Frances Uku  1:08:15  
Oh, no, no. I, I, I ask also because we, again, going back to the the study, which is that's all I can use as my starting point, was that we envisioned shared parking in the back, which could either be between lots or a municipally arranged. I don't know. First, okay. So, in in that sense, you could maybe go a little more with the coverage if you had shared parking and that or shared recreation something. I don't know. You know, it's just

Karen Smythe  1:08:52  
doing an incentive to create that shared parking.

Frances Uku  1:08:56  
Correct

Bonnie Franson  1:08:56  
would make a lot of sense. So the Gateway Business District, the one that exists is 35% That's the maximum coverage. That's the east side of

Victoria Polidoro  1:09:09  
90. So one of the things,

Bonnie Franson  1:09:11  
whether you ever do form-based or not, one of the things you might want to do is instead of having a lot of the narrative, you could create a use table, and so they're columns, and the columns are your zoning districts, and all the uses are listed as rows, and then they're literally just S or SP or permitted, so that you could see in one shot where where everything's allowed, which zones, and the same is true for the bulk standards. So if you had many communities have a chart that say you know same thing, all your zoning districts, and here all the side yard and front yard. Yeah, I mean that's one of the things we've talked about. If we go to a bigger like cleanup consideration of zoning, yeah, is because this is where you start to say, all right, does this make sense? Does this fit? You know why is it one thing you can get one? But I think it's in the study, but I don't remember. I think it was

Frances Uku  1:10:06  
uses that it was within the study. Okay. Yeah. All right. But it's not. It's not

Melkorka Kjarval  1:10:11  
all of our things. It was just the ones that were relevant to that. Right. Because there's even more. Correct.

Frances Uku  1:10:15  
And then you was what was in the right.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:10:17  
Yeah.

Bonnie Franson  1:10:19  
So, so that's where the 30-5% comes. It exists. If we want to go higher, we can. Let's just talk about

Henry Heintzman  1:10:27  
it. Bonnie, one thing that I did notice in the case of through lots, so through lots, when you have a road that touches both the front and the back of the building, it may be hard. I thought with the 30-5% coverage and the build two lines being 10 to 20 feet from both the front and the back, it may be hard on larger lots to meet either the build-to line or the 35 percent. Because if you have the building, if you want most of the building up in the front of the lot, and it's 35 percent, then it's almost by definition not going to meet the build-to-line in the back of the building, if that makes if

Bonnie Franson  1:11:03  
it's a required build two line in the back.

Henry Heintzman  1:11:05  
Yeah, and I think for for the through lots, it is both the build two line applies in the front and the back.

Bonnie Franson  1:11:12  
But you're not required to have the building go all the way to the. I know the yard requirements apply, so you have a front yard requirement for both frontages on a through lot. I don't know that there's a build-to requirement, but I can take a look.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:11:26  
Are they both considered frontages when they're

Bonnie Franson  1:11:28  
typically a corner lot, for instance? You know, the corner lot when you're on two at an intersection. Yeah. You require that both of them be front yards. Yeah. And then one becomes a side yard, one becomes a rear yard, because you know that's common conventional zoning. The same thing with through a lot of through lots when they're front to to streets, you still want the building setback. Through lot, first of all, you actually don't really want through lots because you're putting really someone's backyard technically what they're going to put in that yard. In as much as they have to meet front yard standards, they have to have a place to put their typical backyard stuff. It's going to end up in one of those front yards. It's just a bigger lane. Yeah. So so you try and avoid having through lots, if you can.

Karen Smythe  1:12:23  
But just thinking about the the Gateway North, the businesses that exist, if we extend Grave Street, they're going to

Bonnie Franson  1:12:29  
become through lots. They're going to become through lots. Yes, but on the

Karen Smythe  1:12:32  
backside, they won't be because through lots, because it's basically the it's either the cemetery or the or the woods behind them.

Bonnie Franson  1:12:39  
Yes. Yep.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:12:40  
But there would be a possibility for them to subdivide, right? Like there is a possibility

Bonnie Franson  1:12:44  
that that could because

Melkorka Kjarval  1:12:45  
you get multiple frontage, so you could almost like become a more valuable property

Bonnie Franson  1:12:51  
by subdividing. Yeah, that's a

Frances Uku  1:12:52  
possibility

Bonnie Franson  1:12:53  
because you've now subdivided it. You have frontage on the parallel road

Karen Smythe  1:13:00  
if it's a road, but

Bonnie Franson  1:13:01  
your parallel road has now created through lots, possibly, and it just comes down to lots. I mean, I think, I, you know, when we think about these scenarios, this is where it's good to give the planning board some discretion to be able to change, let's say, coverages or yards or certain things, so they don't have to go off for variances.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:13:31  
Is that a way? Oh, I'm sorry.

Bonnie Franson  1:13:32  
Got it.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:13:33  
Is that a way to incentivize building people to be able to want to put in a parallel road? Is to say you could subdivide this property into three, and you could sell them.

Bonnie Franson  1:13:44  
I would say yes. I mean, it doesn't still meet standards, so we have to make sure we're looking at that.

Victoria Polidoro  1:13:50  
Yeah, maybe because it creates road access to the rear of the lot. Yeah, where otherwise you have a long shared driveway.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:13:56  
Yeah. Is that something we could map out when street map is considered to see what, so it'd almost be like a plug-and-play option for the parcel owner.

Victoria Polidoro  1:14:09  
I mean, I think I think you could probably come up with some ideas now, right?

Bonnie Franson  1:14:17  
Yeah, I was just thinking about the official map, like creating the official map. The

Victoria Polidoro  1:14:21  
official map is is going to be once it's done, it's kind of set. So if you go that route, so you're going to want to know exactly where the road has to go and be prepared when the time comes to you know to buy those pieces and pay for it. But

Melkorka Kjarval  1:14:37  
if if we design it so that it could accommodate people to be able to take a through lot and turn it into two, and the other one into that would be

Karen Smythe  1:14:44  
logical. Yeah, because you would because if you're going to put a road through, you're going to want the sort of east side to be its own lot.

Victoria Polidoro  1:14:50  
Yeah,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:14:51  
so it would be a benefit to the parcel owner, possibly that they could have three possible sales instead of one.

Victoria Polidoro  1:14:57  
Yes, potentially.

Bonnie Franson  1:14:58  
So when you create an official map, you're not actually changing the lot itself, so you haven't created a civil. Creating the

Karen Smythe  1:15:06  
possibility of an additional lot.

Bonnie Franson  1:15:08  
Yeah, no, I'm thinking about it from the yards perspective and from the bulk standards. It's just a paper, it's like a papered street, but it does not exist.

Victoria Polidoro  1:15:19  
Correct, but it does confer some rights, so you know, village. Yeah, it does. Yeah,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:15:27  
to the public right of way, kind of right. Like you're sort of like saying that this belong, this will be a

Victoria Polidoro  1:15:32  
public right of way. Yeah, and in some, I mean, I saw a case. Henry did some research where, you know, they said, well, it's on the village map, so we get to walk it. And the court upheld that.

Karen Smythe  1:15:43  
Yeah. Interesting.

Bonnie Franson  1:15:46  
We're going to have to look at the lot sizes. We may want to put that flexibility in because, again, I'm just trying to think of ways to avoid the potential need in the future for variances. Once you put, if you're trying to get the road in,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:16:02  
yeah,

Bonnie Franson  1:16:03  
you know,

Frances Uku  1:16:04  
yeah,

Bonnie Franson  1:16:05  
some of these are not really deep lots. Some are, some are, some are not. Right. There's some interesting.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:16:11  
I mean, then there's like a landlocked apartment too that's back there. Yeah, that has like an easement. Yeah, so keep kind

Victoria Polidoro  1:16:17  
of putting the road in front of them, which

Bonnie Franson  1:16:19  
it may. That's the thing, you know. They may never want that, but they may want it if they think they're going to get on the other side. Yes, exactly.

Frances Uku  1:16:27  
Yeah.

Bonnie Franson  1:16:28  
So you'll put the road through it, and then you have to deal with parking. But they they might.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:16:33  
I mean, I know I see those residents walking and trying to cross over on the park area. There's like it's really not a safe way to walk up there is

Bonnie Franson  1:16:42  
yeah yeah it's the residents have they been there? Do you remember them being approved? They were they've been there. They've

Karen Smythe  1:16:47  
been for a while. Yeah, they've been there for a while. Yeah,

Perry Allen  1:16:50  
I was in those apartments too. And

Bonnie Franson  1:16:52  
it's land law, so you were in the land apartment. I don't even know how this lock went through.

Perry Allen  1:16:58  
Yeah, it was a while back

Bonnie Franson  1:17:00  
because 288 town law.

Karen Smythe  1:17:01  
I don't know the law.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:17:03  
No, no, you've been to.

Frances Uku  1:17:04  
Okay, guys, sorry, I think it was like

Perry Allen  1:17:06  
no, sorry. It

Victoria Polidoro  1:17:07  
says 2000 but I'm not sure. I'm not sure how this lot was ever created.

Bonnie Franson  1:17:13  
So let's

Karen Smythe  1:17:17  
see what we. One

Melkorka Kjarval  1:17:18  
of those May situations with a planning board. Well, I mean, it's a lot

Victoria Polidoro  1:17:21  
with no road front. I know

Frances Uku  1:17:23  
it's interesting. So the road

Victoria Polidoro  1:17:24  
would actually help legalize the lot in some ways because it would have real access. Yeah. Oh, maybe they

Karen Smythe  1:17:29  
do have space for two more buildings.

Victoria Polidoro  1:17:30  
Yeah, I think, or at least 101.

Karen Smythe  1:17:32  
Yeah. Oh, that's interesting.

Frances Uku  1:17:35  
Okay, that. So nine is here. Yeah, nine is here. So this is

Victoria Polidoro  1:17:39  
where the road would theoretically, if if you were running straight up from CVS, the road would pass this way. And the judges jogs

Karen Smythe  1:17:48  
over a bit below the option. Yes.

Frances Uku  1:17:51  
Okay.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:17:52  
Which used to be a milk plant. Yeah. Right. CVS.

Karen Smythe  1:17:57  
Go in. Yeah. You'd come in that way. You jog a little to the left and go straight up.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:18:01  
What's interesting about big? Can you do the

Frances Uku  1:18:02  
squeezy the the yeah there we go, okay.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:18:07  
What's interesting about big factory buildings like that is we could they couldn't build to those standards now, which is why they're kind of an amazing opportunity for redevelopment. That doesn't happen, you know. That that we actually have so many big buildings that used to be factories, and it's an opportunity like the chocolate factory.

Bonnie Franson  1:18:25  
So, number four on page. This is where I just draw the attention. On page five, that's where we're trying to get into the sliding scale situation, and I provide an example of a calculation, but this is where we started to get concerned. Sure, for for a pre-existing building on a small lot, having a density of 2,500 square feet per dwelling unit may work, but if you use that on a large property, that may be many more units than you ever intended. Yeah. So, and this is something that I was bouncing around, trying to get a grip on. I think it's still something I want everyone to really focus on. Again, to make sure there's not this law of unintended consequences, or maybe you just somehow have to address it differently. I don't know.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:19:23  
Does that come into account with a sewer expansion sort of thing? Like, would they a developer that wants to hook into that and they say, okay, we're not. Let's say Repco is out of the picture and that's not what we're designing. You know, dealing with, and someone else comes in and they want a huge amount of capacity. They don't automatically get capacity because they are in the district, right? They would. How does that work? Yes, they would. They would because they because

Karen Smythe  1:19:46  
they they are in the sewer use area for the phase two expansion as it is currently laid out. So if you're in the sewer use area, you are required to be on the municipal municipal sewer, and you'd be paying

Victoria Polidoro  1:20:00  
even the vacant lots. You're paying for the capital costs. Okay. You're not paying the user fees. But I think

Karen Smythe  1:20:05  
the notion, if I understand correctly, this section is to limit the the amount of dwellings you would do on the bigger

Bonnie Franson  1:20:16  
lot. And is that except unless you do it through the PRD, because then that's a different development. It's a different. You're getting amenities. You're getting open space. It's being designed differently. But again, this also

Karen Smythe  1:20:29  
creates the incentive to use the PRD if you're going to do just a housing development.

Bonnie Franson  1:20:33  
That's because otherwise

Karen Smythe  1:20:34  
this limits you.

Bonnie Franson  1:20:35  
But again, this is of all the sections. This in particular, I would love people to look at to make sure it would work. Is

Melkorka Kjarval  1:20:42  
there any sort of connection with the capacity that the engineers have figured out? Have we had the engineers look at this and make sure that we can guarantee this?

Karen Smythe  1:20:50  
They have looked at the capacity based on what Rucko is looking at, but not necessarily this. Yeah, I will say the the way the project is set up is there's some flexibility in there. I not to the you know it's like not to just but I think to your point if someone if Repco falls away someone else comes in and this gets applied what does this mean and what would the what would the capacity need be for the sewer? I think that's an excellent question. Definitely look at it. Okay, so we're I think we're up to the affordability piece. J, so we talked about permanent open space on page eight. We

Bonnie Franson  1:21:33  
have the whole plan residential development.

Karen Smythe  1:21:36  
Well, after the afford the J is referencing the 41.1 40-1.1 which is the workforce housing, and then we get into workforce

Bonnie Franson  1:21:45  
housing, which is bottom of my bottom my page eight.

Karen Smythe  1:21:49  
Yes, yes, and the workforce housing. The intention of the way it's written is that this is for the entire village, correct?

Bonnie Franson  1:21:54  
Not just,

Karen Smythe  1:21:56  
and this came up because it was always a you know RUCO is going to do their thing in that spot, and then there was a moment where, for a variety of reasons, there was a potential that RUCO wasn't going to be they they weren't going to buy the property, and so certainly from my standpoint, I thought wait so if we lose RUCO and we don't have any other accommodation for workforce for workforce housing, then we've lost all opportunity for any level of affordable workforce housing. Correct, and also any of the other developments that we have. It would be nice to have a mechanism to encourage and support, and even arguably require workforce type housing, workforce affordable type housing, given the way the prices are going in our area, we're we're going to rapidly move toward only being a tradition for an entire village rather than have the wonderful mix that we have. So that's why we have a workforce housing section that is now in the in the proposed zoning, right. I I happen to think it's a great idea. I think it's really important for us to be mindful, not knowing where the market's going to go. I think we need more housing, period. But I think we also need an accommodation for, and as everything that I've read says, that affordable workforce housing is arguably best when it's incorporated into the the you know sort of everywhere, it's not all by itself. Right. It's not a standalone workforce housing project. It's it's incorporated

Bonnie Franson  1:23:30  
into and among other units, and it's required to fit in and look like those units as well. And this is going to apply to any development that's 10 or more dwelling units, so wherever anything may be happening, you know that's the threshold where you'll get kicked into the workforce housing standards, where you want at least 10% of them to be workforce housing. But that is an area I believe where we did grant an incentive. Yes, so that yes, they're providing the 10% but they're also getting additional density to be able to achieve that.

Frances Uku  1:24:09  
By then, you mean Rothko or anybody, anybody in this, anybody, anybody in development

Melkorka Kjarval  1:24:14  
10 units or more, right? Because that's when it gets kicked off. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So then they can get they can build 11 units and make how much? Is it one or two of them? It's

Frances Uku  1:24:24  
one if it's one. I think it's one, and they get

Bonnie Franson  1:24:26  
another unit. Yeah, they get an extra unit. Well, that's what I meant. They get 11. So yeah, yes,

Karen Smythe  1:24:30  
and then one would have to be. Yep.

Perry Allen  1:24:32  
How much in the weeds are we getting into this right now, and how much are we just reviewing through? Because I have so many questions about this

Frances Uku  1:24:39  
particular

Perry Allen  1:24:39  
part, which I'm happy to draft up, and then maybe we go back to because there's still so much to talk.

Victoria Polidoro  1:24:46  
How long are we planning on? I think we had till three. At three till

Karen Smythe  1:24:49  
3o'clock was the general intention. I guess I would ask the question of our. I mean, yes, I think there's some important sort of details to go through with the workforce housing, but I think in the question section, there were some. Do we allow this use? Do we not allow this use? What's the definition? Are there other questions that we should look at, given the half hour that we have left for for this meeting? I mean, my plan is to set up our next meeting. Yeah, we're going for August to do this again. Another two-hour meeting.

Perry Allen  1:25:20  
Yes, beautiful. Because maybe I'll draft up all my questions. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Based on

Karen Smythe  1:25:25  
this discussion, another chance to review the you know the get into the gory details. But I think you had some questions that ultimately our board decisions that we're going to need to wrestle with.

Bonnie Franson  1:25:36  
Yeah, and and I would say if you put them together, even in an email, we may be able to respond to those in advance of a meeting to everybody, just to kind of keep things going perfect. Just a question:

Frances Uku  1:25:48  
Do we have one scheduled for the 27th, or did we did we leave that and that's no? This is

Karen Smythe  1:25:53  
we we ended up with today. The 27th is our workshop, so we're not gonna we're not gonna right. Sorry, I

Frances Uku  1:25:59  
was yes no I I remember, but I wasn't sure because I had tossed out. Yeah, I had tossed out

Karen Smythe  1:26:05  
basically the three Mondays in the three remaining Mondays in July as possibilities, and this was the one that worked for.

Frances Uku  1:26:13  
Right. Got it. Perry asked something, and we can continue. Oh yes, the the questions. So so I don't. I personally, if anything that kind of was from me, I I've learned a lot over the course of even our adopting the land use study. So if there's anything here, I would appreciate an opportunity like like Perry to send you new questions. Not, you know, anything here that's from me is. I mean, you can basically just consider obsolete. Yeah, because you know we're just we're learning how to to read this as you have prepared it.

Karen Smythe  1:26:48  
Okay.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:26:49  
I still want to ask my questions.

Frances Uku  1:26:52  
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have

Perry Allen  1:26:53  
30 minutes.

Victoria Polidoro  1:26:55  
Well, they didn't say who they're from, so we just yeah. Why don't we just sort of

Karen Smythe  1:27:00  
go through as many of them as we can. I mean, it starts with food trucks. I think we've had a whole conversation around what, and and this may, to me, I think this probably should be a separate discussion because I think we don't want to say food trucks. We don't want to regulate food trucks with the Gateway North, and not anywhere else.

Bonnie Franson  1:27:17  
And there's a whole licensing requirement often. Yeah, you want to get permits, and and you don't necessarily even have to go to the planning board for a food truck, so it might be just better dealt with as a separate chapter.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:27:31  
I like the idea of it being an experiment zone for that because I do think we're going to get a lot of pushback from the restaurants, and I do think they're not going to be happy about that. But I also think there's the possibility. There's a lot. I've visited a lot of cities and a lot of places where there's really innovative kind of like outdoor food mall type things that pop up, and they're seasonal. And even in Dover, they have this really great outdoor food truck. Sort of like you know, I feel like that is a kind of place where maybe like when they sub they subdivide a thing. They could put a food truck on it, and they could have like a little gravel, you know, picnic area thing. It could be a summer kind of thing. I like the idea of considering that, but so fun.

Victoria Polidoro  1:28:08  
Food trucks have there's kind of two paths for food

Melkorka Kjarval  1:28:10  
trucks

Victoria Polidoro  1:28:11  
because when they're on the road,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:28:13  
yeah,

Victoria Polidoro  1:28:13  
they're treated one way. When they're just parking on your street,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:28:16  
yeah,

Victoria Polidoro  1:28:16  
and you know, are you going to control or regulate them when they park right in front of the pizza place and start having their own pizza, versus when they're located on on a lot off of the road. I'm talking like permanent,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:28:27  
like permanently parked somewhere becomes like almost an outdoor sort of experience. Yeah. So as

Victoria Polidoro  1:28:33  
like, yeah, as a use, like not as a regulation. So can

Bonnie Franson  1:28:38  
you you can't tax a food truck. So if it becomes a permanent fixture on a lot, it's not like it's not under

Victoria Polidoro  1:28:47  
permanent. It's always removable.

Bonnie Franson  1:28:49  
Yeah. So it's not. So in other words, the restaurant is taxed, whereas if someone just parks a food truck there, you're not getting

Victoria Polidoro  1:28:57  
property taxes.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:28:58  
But the person that owns the property would be getting taxes, right? Well, they're paying property taxes,

Victoria Polidoro  1:29:02  
but I'm not sure. I think what Bonnie's saying is the assessor cannot increase the property taxes based on.

Bonnie Franson  1:29:08  
Yeah, I don't know that they can't.

Victoria Polidoro  1:29:09  
Well, we'd have to look on a non-permanent structure.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:29:12  
So it's not in the village's interest because we wouldn't. Well, not

Bonnie Franson  1:29:16  
necessarily. I think you know some

Henry Heintzman  1:29:18  
revenue, but yeah, in the license signal to make up for that. Well,

Karen Smythe  1:29:22  
that's what I was saying. So sometimes there's a licensing fee. You know, they have to annually. You know, so here's here's what I'm because I think food trucks are a great idea. I'm not convinced that that's the best area to do our our exploration idea. Yeah, I'm not convinced, but I think it doesn't mean that we can't be doing it in parallel. To say, and if we want to say, let's because we're going to have to look, we're going to have to understand what food regulation, food truck regulation looks like, whether it's on the street or on on a lot. You know. Well, do you want

Melkorka Kjarval  1:29:54  
to regulate the ones on the street? I mean, I think that we already have a parking limit, so they're not allowed to park X. Like no one can park in a state. In the business district,

Karen Smythe  1:30:04  
it's two hours. Okay, and they have to move, so it's it's

Melkorka Kjarval  1:30:06  
basically not allowed. I mean, to your

Bonnie Franson  1:30:08  
point, there's you know there's a pizzeria, and then someone parks a food truck for another pizzeria right in front. I get that. Yeah, that's not fair. I think would in theory, but I so there is

Melkorka Kjarval  1:30:18  
this activation of spaces, and it's like it is a difficult space up there, and I just feel like it could be something that could be kind of. I just think it could be a draw. When you say space, you

Bonnie Franson  1:30:28  
mean the entire Gateway North or a particular property?

Frances Uku  1:30:31  
No, that's all. What about allowing

Victoria Polidoro  1:30:34  
it as an just just making this sort of an accessory to a another principal use? So in the Gateway North, you can have an accessory seasonal food truck or something like that,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:30:45  
and seasonal even would be like I I would that be open to a limit like that because once we start plowing

Victoria Polidoro  1:30:51  
and everything, it's not fun anyway. Okay, so let's look at it as an accessory accessory to commercial use in the in the Gateway North, and just think about the thing.

Bonnie Franson  1:31:00  
Yeah, let's let's think about it because I'm concerned about putting it in there without them having the standards. Yeah, we have problems with the standards. Sorry. So the question is: Is the zoning the best format to the best place to put those kind of regulations?

Victoria Polidoro  1:31:17  
But even if we put just the placeholder for the accessory use, and then we can draft a separate chapter for food trucks in the meantime. Maybe

Melkorka Kjarval  1:31:26  
the neat thing about food trucks is it also often leads to actual bigger restaurants. Like Bubby's was a food truck first. It is sort of like this, like I think the other thing

Bonnie Franson  1:31:35  
is I would just be careful if you want to consider them limiting them to the Gateway North, because you have other business zones, and maybe it would make sense somewhere else, unless you're really just trying to do it there for some reason.

Karen Smythe  1:31:48  
Well, I think I think her notion is to we put it there and see what happens, and then and then and then learn from that, and then expand. Oh yes,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:31:55  
and also I think truthfully, the parcel owners that own it now, I don't know how much investment they're going to be putting into like doing infill, so like this is something that would allow them to activate those spaces and make them more pedestrian friendly in like a low cost way. Yeah, and I just I think, but I think accessory dwelling that's or not dwelling accessory use. Yeah, that's an interesting.

Perry Allen  1:32:15  
I think it also capitalizes on if the Gateway North is trying to become its own distinct district, and what is that? And it has this link to agriculture, just kind of fluided through its proximity. And we're trying to lean into this sort of agricultural element with the Ruppco design. We could further lean into that, perhaps, with some of this conceptualization. Could they

Bonnie Franson  1:32:38  
be on the PRD? Could they be on the Brookville property?

Melkorka Kjarval  1:32:43  
Yeah, but I didn't want to just limit it to that. No, but you know

Bonnie Franson  1:32:46  
where they they have the barns and they don't. Yeah, that would be amazing. Yeah, yeah,

Karen Smythe  1:32:50  
I think that would be our. Okay, yeah, I see those. Okay. Okay.

Frances Uku  1:32:53  
Sorry, I have a I have a request only because we have you as as the professionals. I I would really love to to return just so we can finish this and go through the questions, only because these these came out. I'm assuming from the land use study discussions and the zoning and the zoning

Karen Smythe  1:33:12  
discussion.

Frances Uku  1:33:13  
But we're only just having the we're only just having the zoning law discussions now. I mean, as far as the draft,

Bonnie Franson  1:33:20  
I so there was a draft already, and people had sent me comments back in March, February, maybe.

Karen Smythe  1:33:28  
Well, I think you I think you created the zoning in like December, and I think you know we back forward. There were comments that came up about the zoning.

Frances Uku  1:33:36  
You mean about this draft?

Victoria Polidoro  1:33:37  
Well, the prior draft. A prior draft, which is very similar. I think some of these might be your comments too.

Frances Uku  1:33:43  
Yeah, but like I say, I don't know from when there was something about like the the economic test. You know, these are all things when I was starting to learn about. I don't. And some of them are

Melkorka Kjarval  1:33:53  
from planning board members, and some of them are from some of the

Perry Allen  1:33:57  
members

Speaker 4  1:33:58  
too.

Bonnie Franson  1:33:58  
Yeah,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:34:00  
so they're they're basically comments when we ask people for comments. Anthony,

Bonnie Franson  1:34:03  
when he was on, I believe he had some comments. There are just various people who are offering a comment. Yeah.

Karen Smythe  1:34:09  
What is what is it that you're that you're suggesting?

Frances Uku  1:34:12  
I I was just suggesting that we we continue on your presentation on on the law just because I mean yes questions and we'll get into that, especially when we schedule the the next meeting. That gives more of a chance for all of the questions, including some newer newer ones. But you do have this already before us, and we don't have you always. So my my hope would be to just understand what you've presented in in here, and then you know. Conversely, there are

Melkorka Kjarval  1:34:44  
questions that I really do want answered, but that's yeah. I was going to say so. There was the workforce housing

Karen Smythe  1:34:48  
piece that we mentioned, and then after that, it's the definitions. If you look, if you look at what's next, so obviously the workforce housing is a whole unit unto itself, but after that unit comes the form, literally the definition, pretty much the end.

Bonnie Franson  1:35:04  
And then the lots, yeah, then just the chart with the lots.

Perry Allen  1:35:09  
Something to just point out in a way that I find very interesting and compelling within the workforce housing is this section where the. Sorry, let me find out exactly how it's phrased, the fund. Yes, we're important. Yes, thank you. The housing fund, which is just very cool, interesting idea. I'm excited to delve more into that future as well. But that's just I like that opportunity

Bonnie Franson  1:35:34  
because someone may want not just not want to do one one unit, and instead they could put it in the fund so that maybe some other developer is able to do it because they have the resources. So interesting. That's an interesting idea. Yeah,

Karen Smythe  1:35:48  
and it's not. It's you. You got this from. There's another community that has this in place. Yeah.

Bonnie Franson  1:35:54  
Yes. Pine Plains did a whole study, and they built it into those two. Yeah.

Perry Allen  1:35:58  
Workforce housing trust fund. Yeah.

Karen Smythe  1:36:00  
So Pine Plains and what what was the the the other

Bonnie Franson  1:36:03  
East Fishkill I think really we we had a template I'm trying to remember if it was East Fishkill but also we did a separate you know housing study somewhere there was

Karen Smythe  1:36:18  
something across the river

Bonnie Franson  1:36:19  
also Montebello developed the village of Montebello.

Perry Allen  1:36:23  
Could you tell me, is it often used to just speak plainly as a way of circumnavigating building workforce housing, or as a way of ensuring that there is a genuine fund to support those initiatives? Because I could see it being neither, to be honest.

Bonnie Franson  1:36:40  
I don't know if we. I'm kind of asking a question with a question, but whether you can require that they still build it and not accept a housing trust fund. If you felt that they were circumnavigating, then you wouldn't have to take the the fund. We just ask them to put the unit in. But in terms of experience, I don't have a lot of experience with them offering the money instead of building the unit.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:37:10  
Interesting.

Bonnie Franson  1:37:10  
So usually they build the unit. I don't want to say usually. I just haven't had that experience. Gotcha. I have a question

Frances Uku  1:37:16  
about about Robco and specifically what what and this is also for the board. What what commitments do we have to Rockco currently? Like what what

Karen Smythe  1:37:30  
we have not

Frances Uku  1:37:31  
okay.

Karen Smythe  1:37:32  
We have no commitment to

Frances Uku  1:37:34  
Rockco. Okay, and

Karen Smythe  1:37:36  
they just own the property.

Frances Uku  1:37:38  
Right, and they're

Melkorka Kjarval  1:37:39  
waiting for us to pass something so that they can develop it. So we are we are adding.

Frances Uku  1:37:45  
Probably not just Rubco. There are probably other there or may there may be not probably other people also who are.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:37:50  
Yeah, but every time that we don't every month that we don't pass this, we are adding costs to the affordable housing in the end because it's every time you delay. Yeah, time costs.

Frances Uku  1:38:02  
No, but when we have it right and we get it done, then they're ready to move. Like it's it's it's meeting. I mean, it's it's public. It's public. They'll always comment on

Melkorka Kjarval  1:38:11  
it. Yeah, I'm not saying. I'm just saying that that that is that is the one thing that we have with them right now. Is every time that we don't, we we can push it off. But it's important

Bonnie Franson  1:38:21  
to keep moving.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:38:22  
Yes.

Bonnie Franson  1:38:22  
Yeah. I will say.

Frances Uku  1:38:24  
Was that a don't ask any more questions? Basically, couched it. No, not you. No,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:38:29  
I was just saying that that is that's sort of like the relationship we have right now. Is they are waiting for us.

Bonnie Franson  1:38:34  
So I will say one of though the effects of waiting is just simply, oftentimes Rupco and other workforce housing groups are relying on a particular funding source, a state funding source, tax credits, whatever it is. Those change, and so they also just want to, you know, if they've been promised monies, they want to make sure that they can use them, you know, because the programs do change. That happened to a project I'm familiar with after they had so much issues with putting a wastewater treatment plant in that after like a year, suddenly they wanted to do something different because they no longer had that funding source, and the community didn't want to do what they now want to do. So there is a timeliness from that perspective. I understand,

Frances Uku  1:39:23  
and actually that's why I was bringing it up because, as I understand from the draft law, so the the Cookingham Rockcos site is actually governed by state. Like they are, they are. I forget the line exactly in here, but it's they are under. They

Victoria Polidoro  1:39:39  
right now they have money from yes from a state grant, which they want to spend when they come in to develop. I don't know if that would be the case, but presumably because that's how affordable housing gets built.

Frances Uku  1:39:50  
Yeah. So I guess I was to the extent that you're able to tell me. Yeah. If once the zoning is written, like could we could we just allow the affordable bid to just be Rubco, right? And then we don't need it in the rest. Like then, if Rubco is going to get billed, you could,

Victoria Polidoro  1:40:08  
you could. So yes, you could, you could not have a workforce housing requirement in your law. And then if if Rubco comes forward, you will get some affordable units, and that's that. There's no requirement. But if Rubco, let's say they lose the grant money, or they decide it's easier to build somewhere else. They could just sell the lot at market value to anyone, and then at that point you don't have any kind of inclusionary housing.

Frances Uku  1:40:32  
Right. So would it be reasonable then, or not reason? Yeah. Would it be reasonable, and not that we're doing it, signing anything right now? To and I believe I floated this previously. If we if we make the guidelines around that lot specifically, because it's the only 10 plus acre lot in in that in that area, so where else would so you mean

Karen Smythe  1:40:55  
it's 10 units? It's not 10 acres.

Frances Uku  1:40:57  
It's 12 acres, and it's more than no. We're

Karen Smythe  1:41:00  
talking about the workforce. The workforce housing requirement is if you're going to build 10 units or more, that's when the workforce housing kicks in.

Frances Uku  1:41:08  
Right. That's that's for okay. I guess I'm talking about the PRD now, which is something. So you're saying

Victoria Polidoro  1:41:14  
you want to limit the PRD to just one area of the village.

Frances Uku  1:41:18  
No, I'm yes. I'm just wondering why we need the PRD if the reasons that we are doing it are basically satisfied by Robco is what I'm asking.

Victoria Polidoro  1:41:28  
Well, partly because right the Gateway North is going to have certain development requirements, and it might not work the same because most of the Gateway is infill type development where you're trying to rebuild something that is sort of built out.

Frances Uku  1:41:43  
Close curb cuts, and

Victoria Polidoro  1:41:44  
then that northern portion is not built, and so the PRD gives everyone a little more flexibility in the layout and design of how that should be, but you don't have

Karen Smythe  1:41:55  
to do it. We have 10 more minutes. Right. Yeah. Yes, Mayor Tim Lavans.

Bonnie Franson  1:42:01  
I think the concern would be if you have something called a PRD zone, and you apply it to one lot, and then there's the question of spot zoning. Oh no, no, so that's also been something we've been trying to avoid.

Victoria Polidoro  1:42:15  
Well, the I think the reason it goes to multiple lots is there's a second vacant lot near it, which could be developed in the same manner,

Bonnie Franson  1:42:22  
right? As opposed to landing one zone on one property. Yeah, but that's also making

Karen Smythe  1:42:27  
the assumption that the housing that Repco builds is all we need for affordable or workforce housing, and I would I would argue that having having additional spots that are workforce or affordable housing would actually be a benefit to the village.

Frances Uku  1:42:42  
No, but then going back to Perry's point, if people were just going to buy buy themselves out of the affordable housing anyway, then we have funding

Karen Smythe  1:42:49  
that we can that we that the village can put towards can put towards a can buy a lot can do. I mean, like we could almost grant for Bellevue

Melkorka Kjarval  1:43:00  
to do it for us. Or if you have that money for humanity, and we could fix up a house, or they're

Victoria Polidoro  1:43:05  
bought a house to fix up, the monies could be going to them as an example. I guess you could get rid of the fund. There's no requirement that you have a fund for workforce housing, right? No, it's just sometimes. But that's the flip side

Karen Smythe  1:43:17  
incentive where someone really does say, "I'm not going to put in the thing, then. Then, because otherwise, if you don't have the fund, then they either build it or they can't build because they're not meeting the requirements.

Perry Allen  1:43:28  
Could we almost be paying our own sort of accessory dwelling unit renovation program with that fund for low-income housing or workforce housing? I mean, I

Karen Smythe  1:43:39  
think the notion is that you? That the the idea is it it has to meet income requirements, etc. So so long as

Bonnie Franson  1:43:47  
that unit still meets all those requirements, then you could or build ADUs. There are a lot of options as long as the funding the funding

Karen Smythe  1:43:57  
would provide us with that opportunity to provide. But

Perry Allen  1:44:01  
for the next.

Bonnie Franson  1:44:06  
So we talked about food trucks, incentive zoning around curb cuts, incentivize property owners to reduce number of curb cuts, enhance the walking experience once we get to installing sidewalks. My question was because it's a state highway in particular for GN. Can the village mandate closing the curb cuts, and then otherwise, what would the board want the incentive to be, like more building coverage? So,

Karen Smythe  1:44:33  
Victoria, can you? So, I think that I mean, the idea behind it is walking up there. There's so many curb cuts. It's really, and of course, there aren't. There really aren't. There's not a sidewalk north of CVS. The intention is to put a sidewalk up there, particularly because we're hoping to have a lot more people live up there. But once we do that, right now there's a there's a way in several spots, and the idea would be if we can get the parking in the back and make it shared, and then have limited number of ways in, but again, it's all private. So how can we? Right. How can the way that happens? Cite a

Melkorka Kjarval  1:45:08  
crosswalk because there's so many driveways

Perry Allen  1:45:11  
to

Melkorka Kjarval  1:45:11  
get across.

Frances Uku  1:45:12  
Yeah. If someone crosswalk

Henry Heintzman  1:45:14  
is a different

Frances Uku  1:45:15  
different

Melkorka Kjarval  1:45:16  
issue. But is there a way that we could fee them? Like we could charge them a fee. Like because I've heard the curb fees, right? So, like, there's a lot of places that have like schools or churches or whatever. Lots, and they can't get tax property taxes, but you can charge like a curb fee to get for services, right? Because police is a service, all these different services. Can we do something similar where it's like a curb cut fee, where if you have one entrance to your property, it's fine. If you have two, then you have to pay $1,000 a year. If you have three, you have to pay $3,000 a year, and then that goes into a sidewalk fund that we use to actually make sidewalk.

Victoria Polidoro  1:45:53  
So, I'll look into it and get an answer. But I think the answer is going to be dependent whether you're on a village road or a state highway, okay, because we generally don't control the curbs on the DOT. And it's there

Melkorka Kjarval  1:46:06  
right away. Is that and we maintain their sidewalks. They they do it over to us, but it's not the same thing. There must be some agreement between

Victoria Polidoro  1:46:12  
the village and.to maintain the sidewalk. They no,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:46:14  
they it's like part of their thing. Like once they make them, they give it. Yes, yeah, yeah. It's just a camera. This is the lights

Frances Uku  1:46:20  
and yeah. Because we said,

Bonnie Franson  1:46:22  
weren't these sidewalks yours? You put them in. No, it was yours. Yeah. But did they actually deed the land?

Melkorka Kjarval  1:46:27  
No, it's just part of the agreement on their. Like it's actually on their. Yeah.

Victoria Polidoro  1:46:31  
Oh, interesting. I don't know the. We'll look into it. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Frances Uku  1:46:35  
Sorry. It's

Karen Smythe  1:46:35  
99% of them are on on State Road. But if

Melkorka Kjarval  1:46:39  
let's say the gas station. They have four driveways, right? If they start curb cuts, I'm sorry. If they start paying $3,000 a year for that privilege because it's so not safe for pedestrians, they can still do it. They might be able to pay that, but then we can use that to make more sidewalks elsewhere. I don't know. Just it would be gas station. Yeah, it would be

Karen Smythe  1:47:01  
nice to because also the the the old dry cleaners they have two they have two curb cuts they don't need two curb cuts it would be nice to figure out a way to incentivize them to eliminate one of their curb cuts right so that's the goal okay got it that sounds like that's the legal right now question yeah yeah look into that I'm pretty

Frances Uku  1:47:20  
sure.

Bonnie Franson  1:47:21  
We talked about recreation fee. Make sure all streets and sidewalks are designed to accommodate, allow for a snow bank. So I think in general, but the question is, it might be a site plan thing, not a zoning thing.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:47:36  
Well, like Park Avenue, I'm guessing the village put that that sidewalk in, right?

Karen Smythe  1:47:41  
I assume so.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:47:42  
Without a buffer, so that means everyone has to go out and and like every time we go by with a truck, right? It pushes it back over. So your question would be that the sidewalk has to have a buffer between

Karen Smythe  1:47:54  
the street and the sidewalk. Yeah. Yes, exactly. It wants to

Melkorka Kjarval  1:47:57  
be required so that actual shoveling is doable. So that's also not

Karen Smythe  1:48:03  
just shoveling; it's also creating a little bit more of a buffer between the road that makes it a nicer experience for the pedestrian.

Bonnie Franson  1:48:09  
Right. Oh, we've talked about that by opening door because there are people who say it's uncomfortable.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:48:14  
Yeah, it's scary. You're the right on, right, right

Bonnie Franson  1:48:17  
on the road.

Karen Smythe  1:48:19  
So we can cover that by by requiring a

Bonnie Franson  1:48:21  
yeah yeah looking at the sidewalk standards consideration of minimum lot sizes we'll consider in the bulk standards I don't know if that was because of concern that they're too big they're too small I'd have to look back at that setbacks in keeping with existing buildings, yes. And there was a suggestion for visual aid. We can provide that visual. Okay, because it's important. Remove uses, financial establishments, fast food without drive-through laboratories.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:48:58  
This is from a planning board person, right? Yeah, I mean, I believe so.

Karen Smythe  1:49:02  
I mean, I think from my standpoint, I don't know why we would eliminate financial establishments.

Frances Uku  1:49:07  
Ditto.

Karen Smythe  1:49:07  
I, I, I just bank. Ditto. I know. I mean, I just.

Frances Uku  1:49:11  
We have drive-throughs, so like that's once you get rid of.

Karen Smythe  1:49:14  
I think in this area we were not allowing drive-throughs. No, that's what you're saying. Since

Frances Uku  1:49:20  
we yeah, there's no reason to walk in bank. But you can have

Bonnie Franson  1:49:23  
fast food. You can have like a Chinese takeout.

Karen Smythe  1:49:25  
So I was going to say fast food. I think the issue is the question around the definition. We had a definition of fast food. Okay, it's not McDonald's. I mean, I think the notion and that maybe overlaps with fast food is you're picking it up. You're not sitting down to eat. Correct. It's

Melkorka Kjarval  1:49:41  
a corner counter. It's Bubbies, and I think people they think of it as fast food chain and something like. And I don't know if

Karen Smythe  1:49:47  
it makes sense to instead of using the word fast food to maybe call it takeout food or

Melkorka Kjarval  1:49:53  
casualty.

Victoria Polidoro  1:49:53  
It says establishment whose principal business is sale of pre-prepared or rapid rapidly prepared food, disposable packaging directly to the patron for consumption either on or off premises. So it's bubbies. Yep. It's yeah. It's all of these.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:50:08  
I just think that people have a different visual when they hear past. When they hear episodes, so they're different.

Bonnie Franson  1:50:13  
They're thinking McDonald's. You think rather than a Chinese steak. The zoning words are always

Victoria Polidoro  1:50:18  
different than what people use in reality. Is there a way to this is

Karen Smythe  1:50:21  
a standard word that are based on our definition?

Victoria Polidoro  1:50:25  
I don't. I mean, I don't know if you. We could probably find there's big out restaurant, but then the question is going to be, well, what if they have three seats, four seats? Where's

Frances Uku  1:50:37  
the list that you're of definitions that you're

Victoria Polidoro  1:50:39  
working from right now? I'm in the code. So this is an existing definition. No code. Okay. Okay. It's in section. Where am I?

Frances Uku  1:50:48  
Don't worry, I got it. Is there a way to know where we're going? Yeah, like

Bonnie Franson  1:50:51  
200 casual

Melkorka Kjarval  1:50:52  
dining, and then have it have the same exact thing as a fast food, and then we when we do conglomerate it, we can update it later.

Karen Smythe  1:51:00  
But what are we trying to get rid of? I think honestly, I think this was an assumption that fast food meant McDonald's.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:51:07  
I've gotten a lot of people that are angry about the idea of fast food, so I'm just saying that I do think there is a misconception. Yeah, they just

Karen Smythe  1:51:14  
don't know. Then we had to change it

Victoria Polidoro  1:51:15  
throughout the whole code, which is fine, but you got to do a word search. Yeah, so they

Bonnie Franson  1:51:20  
don't want McDonald's, but they would be okay with a Chinese takeout place. I think so. Yeah, our Chinese takeout place is below.

Frances Uku  1:51:27  
Yeah, but another thing people don't understand is the reality is the reality is McDonald's would never without the drive with the drive-through window cause McDonald's will never be here. That's

Victoria Polidoro  1:51:39  
Starbucks might open.

Frances Uku  1:51:40  
That's true. That's true. But or subway. Those don't. Yeah. If we went further with our

Perry Allen  1:51:45  
discussion of regulating, was it versus formula business? We do. Yeah. Yeah. Then that could also be part of that, I suppose. I think it's just

Melkorka Kjarval  1:51:53  
a just it's a confusion there. That's not for the public. I think it's confusion. Yeah. Formula business does pick up on all of the McDonald's. Yeah, and

Perry Allen  1:52:00  
we are regulating formulas. Formula restaurants. Restaurants

Melkorka Kjarval  1:52:04  
from the restaurants in the gateway. Laboratories. Oh, sorry. You were you saying something?

Perry Allen  1:52:09  
Nope. It's about that that we'll get to later. Good to be good.

Victoria Polidoro  1:52:11  
So laboratories. When we were discussing this, I mean, this is a term you have in your code. We're thinking like the blood draw places that people walk in and out of. Yeah. I know it means different things.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:52:20  
There's also like there's a because it makes lotions and creams in the chocolate factory. I like the idea of there being able to be people making things. I don't know if that's the same thing as a laboratory. I know the concern is about animals. I think that's the concern is about animal testing. Okay. I think I think we added

Karen Smythe  1:52:42  
that in. No animal testing is our default. Is that in there now?

Melkorka Kjarval  1:52:45  
Which makes sense. We may have added it

Karen Smythe  1:52:47  
into the actual use. The definition. Not definition, but the actual use. And then there's the added use of the brewery winery. Oh no, it says

Victoria Polidoro  1:52:58  
it's right in the use. Yeah. Yeah. Except nothing here, and she'll permit my medical testing. I was

Karen Smythe  1:53:02  
pretty sure we have. So I, I mean, what I'm hearing, I'm not hearing consensus that we would want to remove these things. Okay, we've at least been through that. I think if anything, you're just thinking about: is there a better deficit, better word, versus fast food because it has other connotations. Yes, that's confusing people. And then the brewery, winery, distillery with tasting rooms required. The only issue that that's going to hit is going to be the if they're actually distilling is going to be related to the sewer, but that's going to be covered in the sewer code.

Bonnie Franson  1:53:40  
I think the idea was that it wasn't just this use that there's no relationship to getting people in and out, right? That it requires the tasting.

Karen Smythe  1:53:48  
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm okay with. I'm okay with that.

Perry Allen  1:53:52  
Yeah, yeah. It

Melkorka Kjarval  1:53:53  
doesn't say how often it has to

Victoria Polidoro  1:53:54  
be open, right? Well, we should put that in. Put that a minimum size. Okay. Yeah. The X having gone through this on the town

Karen Smythe  1:54:01  
planning board. Okay, we got to be okay. So

Melkorka Kjarval  1:54:04  
there's probably three hours on a Sunday. Yeah, different

Karen Smythe  1:54:09  
ends or yeah, you know, minimum of four days, minimum of whatever. Thursday at noon. Yeah.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:54:15  
Well, maybe we meet on Monday. Then something would be okay.

Karen Smythe  1:54:20  
Yeah. Okay. It is 3o'clock Yeah. So I think the so the next well, with the majority of us here, can we can we pick on on our next date?

Frances Uku  1:54:32  
Okay.

Karen Smythe  1:54:34  
I know that for you guys doing it on an afternoon. I know having had the discussion that Mondays three days are good. I mean, I'd be open to the 27th of July, but I don't know if that is

Victoria Polidoro  1:54:50  
that. I have a few comments which I'm going to send to Bonnie Bonnie to submit when we're going through. Great. Hey, if we go through these questions,

Melkorka Kjarval  1:54:58  
I'll be there. Same

Karen Smythe  1:55:12  
that time. All right, so July. I think we just need to because it's a meeting. We just need to notice it, but we've got to reach to so one to 3p.m p.m. july 27 Great.

Perry Allen  1:55:25  
I will send you. Yes, I will send around the comments and questions so that we can be ahead of the game in terms of law. I always learn

Melkorka Kjarval  1:55:33  
so much when you guys are in the room. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much.

Frances Uku  1:55:37  
Can I ask how how you would like that to go in, so that you know I'm not Barag, or we are not Baraji. Like, would you like us? How would you like us to correlate those questions so that you have them in one place and?

Victoria Polidoro  1:55:52  
I think bisection would be helpful. I mean, bissection if the draft in a question. If you put like a specific section, maybe is that is

Karen Smythe  1:56:00  
that your question? Yeah. Here's your question. If you want an email.

Frances Uku  1:56:05  
Yes. My question is, what is most, what is easiest for? I brought this, you know, which I I can hand out to the board as well. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Of course. Which was just some ideas, just like we discussed here, but I didn't mean to get into them because we we brought a lot, but if it's useful, no, no, that's what I'm saying. That that's the reason why I didn't feel like I needed to. We we did cover a lot of them in the meeting, so that I I brought copies, but that's what I was asking is how we can get you ours to maximize your time because your time is expensive.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:56:44  
I mean, you can send them around before the meeting, or we can just go through them at the meeting. I really like this idea of like you getting the questions and putting them into something so that we we can go through and I I was looking forward to getting those things answered this meeting. So like I I would love that format if people can send them, and then we sort of add them to the chart. Yeah, I'll look back at the agenda that we know that we're going to discuss this stuff because. And I would say

Karen Smythe  1:57:09  
in that email, in in looking through these questions, if there's a question that you recognize as your question, because I knew you had some, you had some, and you don't want to ask that question anymore? Indicate that as well in your email to say question answered or you know no longer. Yeah, no. The

Frances Uku  1:57:28  
only reason is this wasn't on the agenda, so I didn't know that we would be working for email. She shared an email, but it wasn't on the agenda for this meeting, so I didn't know that I needed to have the or that it would be here. Is what I'm saying. Okay. Not that I ignored it. I just wasn't expecting the conversation to be on the, the answers of it's useful. I'm glad we had the discussion, but I didn't know that that's where we would be.

Victoria Polidoro  1:57:50  
I think in two weeks I was focused mostly on questions. Everyone has read the draft. You understand what it works, and then we can dig into the the draft itself.

Frances Uku  1:57:58  
Thank you. Great. Yeah. Okay.

Bonnie Franson  1:58:01  
Because it may make sense if there are questions that get answered that we make the edits and then dive into the one where the edits have been made. I think that's going to be a question. Yes. At the same time, or do we make these, make the edits, and then work off of that? So maybe questions first, and then a revised draft. Yeah. That would be great. So maybe

Karen Smythe  1:58:21  
maybe questions for the next meeting, and then after the next meeting can be a time for revisions.

Bonnie Franson  1:58:26  
Yes. Okay. That makes sense.

Karen Smythe  1:58:28  
Okay. All right. I'm officially calling the meeting.

Melkorka Kjarval  1:58:31  
Motion to adjourn.

Karen Smythe  1:58:31  
Motion to adjourn.

Henry Heintzman  1:58:33  
Second.

Frances Uku  1:58:34  
I'll make the motion. There you go. Second. All in favor? Thank you.

Perry Allen  1:58:38  
All

Frances Uku  1:58:39  
right. Can

Melkorka Kjarval  1:58:40  
we tell Craig that that is awesome? Is it also able to email? Yes, yes. Yep,

Karen Smythe  1:58:44  
I will follow up. But great for sure.

Frances Uku  1:58:46  
Okay. Great.

Bonnie Franson  1:58:47  
Turn this

Frances Uku  1:58:48  
off. Thank you so much. And I love this dress. I have to say, I love this dress. Oh, thank you. Very colorful. Very colorful. I love it. I feel like going on vacation. Just okay. Can I go on vacation right now?